First And Last Equipment

[Jammer Six]

Okay, I'm getting closer to taking the plunge.

It's time to build a spreadsheet, with hard numbers, and start comparing it to the bank balance.

So.

I'm older than I used to be. I've spent a lifetime in construction, and I ran my own company for twenty years. Or more. Or less. Depends how you count. I apprenticed in my first trade in 1977.

My point is that I've bought (and sold) lots and lots of equipment. Then I sold some more equipment, and bought some more. Then I bought some used equipment, and then I bought some new equipment. More than once, I sold the whole shooting match, and started over in disgust. I built some equipment. I repaired a lot of equipment. I bought cheap equipment and modified it. I bought expensive equipment and swore at it. I've stared in dismay at a smoking pile of equipment-turned-to-rubble, and wondered what I was going to do next. I've made modifications to equipment that were wonderful, right up until the short circuit/blown hose/fire/rainstorm. I learned a whole string of swear words that are specific to equipment, and another set that is specific to equipment salesmen. And saleswomen. I'm a sucker for women with black hair selling equipment. There was this one young lady who indicated that I was so hot, she could hardly wait for me to buy this equipment so that she and I could go in the back and...

Well. Seems to me that equipment was junk. It also seems to me that somehow, we never made it to the back room.

So I'm interested in setting up a list of equipment for casting boolits.

I have three requirements. Note that, after all the equipment I've bought, a low price is not one of my requirements. I learned that the hard way. In fact, I learned it a few times. I'll either pay the price, or I won't do it.

One, I want to buy this equipment once.

For instance, it appears to me that one place that quality will make a big difference is the mold. So I want a top-flight mold. I will spend money to get a high quality, bees knees, dancing mold. By quality, I mean that I won't ever have to replace it. I won't want to "move up" in quality, I won't need to replace a worn out mold. It will do what it's supposed to do, the way it's supposed to do it. I'll buy it once, and I'll use it the rest of my life. Since I'm fifty four, it won't have to last more than a century or so. If I do this, I'll use it a lot, and I'll use it hard. So I'd rather buy the one I would upgrade to now, and skip the intermediate steps. Since I'm brand new, I anticipate having problems, and I don't want the problems to be the equipment. I want to know, for instance, that whatever the problem is, it isn't the mold.

Two, if there is an "automatic transmission", I want it.

That is, if there is a labor saving device, or a piece of equipment that makes the process easier, or reduces the learning curve, I'm in. Yes, I can run a '57 five-over-four Peterbuilt, I can back it up with the mirrors and empty both it and the pup, but I damn near killed myself learning how to do so. Modern automatic transmissions are better. Hell, old automatic transmissions are better! My favorite, years later, turned out to be an International 10 yard, because of the automatic. Don't get me started about 977s. I still have nightmares about those. And it had an automatic transmission.

Three, I want the equipment to be reasonably common.

I want equipment that everyone here knows how to run. Running one-offs or equipment that is so specialized that only three guys in the state know how to run it has its place, but if one of those guys is sick and the other two are busy, you get to wait, because if you take answers from anyone else, bad things happen. So I want equipment that everyone and their brother knows how to run. The other point about highly specialized equipment is that, in my experience, when it goes down, it goes down hard, and costs more to fix that it should oughta.

The top end, for me, appears to be the line between the Magma Master Pot and the Magma Bullet Master. I am not interested in the machine, but I will consider the pot. I wish to cast, not operate a fully automated machine.

Other interesting points about my intentions, in case you need more information:

• I'm willing to try both ladles and bottom pour; I'm not locked into a method.
• I'll be casting for a .45 ACP and a .38 Super.
• I shoot about one to three hundred rounds a week.
• I reload all of my own ammo, on a Square Deal B.
• I'll be casting in my basement.
• I live in a city.
• I'd like to spend around a thousand, I can double that if I need to.
• I'd rather not spend more than three thousand out of the gate.
• I'll need to join a different range.
• I used to carry sacks of gravel and concrete two at a time. That was 35 years ago. Now if there's weight to be dealt with, I use my checkbook.
• I'm not interested in any unnecessary risks. (Splashes, burns, etc.) I wish, therefore, to minimize any chance of them occurring. I was an apprentice before fall protection became common place, and the days of "if you need a harness, you shouldn't be up here!" are over. And good riddance.

So, with this long post in mind, what would a starting list of equipment be, in your opinion?

I know that there are several custom mold makers here as sponsors, and I certainly mean no offense to any of them by asking for recommendations, but I would like to know if any of them would be better for a rank beginner than others, and why.

And finally, thank you for taking the time to listen to my requirements.

[Buckshot]

..............My personal opinion, if you're starting out and would be casting for only pistols at first and using the KISS principle, it would be basically Lee equipment. Get a Lee 20# furnace. Use Lee LA and it doesn't matter if the boolits are the TL design or regular lube groove designs. *Note* thin the Lee LA 60/40 lube/paint thinner to start, and modify it from there to suit.

Slug your handgun barrels. Get a representative mould for each pistol and cast some boolits. Assuming they drop at least your groove diameter load a couple dummy rounds 'as cast' and see if they chamber. The thing is, sizing is something to do only if you HAVE to do it, like putting shoes on a horse.

So for the outlay for the furnace and a couple moulds + a couple inexpensive detail items, you'll be in the foom fodder business. If you HAVE to size, use the Lee push throughs. Not only are they the least expensive, nose first push through from the base dies are THE most accurate way to size there is.

................Buckshot

[bfuller14]

I agree with Buckshot. As a newbe myself I would say look
at molds from MiHec, Accurate, and NOE. They are great for
us newb's.


Regards,
Barry

[ReloaderFred]

I was where you are now, only it was 1968. I wanted to get into casting to help with my ever increasing shooting hobby. I started with a small cast iron pot, hung over a propane torch by a wire from a board. I used a ladle and a single cavity mold, and slowly cast my bullets one at a time. I bought a used Lyman lube sizer, some 50-50 Alox lube, and went to town making bullets.

Fast forward to today. I now have two bottom pour pots, one 10 pound, and one 20 pound, that sit idle, collecting dust and spider webs. I have roughly 100 bullet molds, which range from really cheap to really expensive. They range from single cavity to 10 cavity, in a multitude of calibers and bullet weights. I also have that original Lyman lube sizer, an RCBS lube sizer, two Saeco lube sizers, and 5 Star lube sizers.

I now do about 90% of my casting with a Magma Master Caster. My bullet sizing is also about 90% done on the Star machines.

I wish I could have afforded better equipment back in 1968, but with small mouths to feed, and working for the phone company at not much over minimum wage, it wasn't in the cards. Now I buy good equipment and enjoy casting.

With the criteria you've set, I'd suggest buying the Master Caster and two molds, one for .45 and one for .38 Super. Magma makes lots of molds for both calibers, and they're good ones. Then I'd buy a Star lube sizer and be done with it.

If I had all the money I've invested in other machines and molds over the years, I could buy a whole bunch more firearms, and probably an automated bullet sizer, and still have money left over for powder and primers..............

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Bullet Caster]

Also don't forget about General Ordnance Development moulds. They make high end moulds for the money. BC

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=Buckshot;1601906]..............My personal opinion, if you're starting out and would be casting for only pistols at first and using the KISS principle, it would be basically Lee equipment. Get a Lee 20# furnace.

I am very confused.
Why would you tell a new person to buy stuff that has so many and causes so many problems?
Is there anyone on this site that owns Lee equipment that has not had to deal with constant and numerous problems in order to get it to do what it is expected to do

I cast and reloaded for years but quit several years ago and sold much of my equipment.
I made a huge mistake last year and bought some of Lee's products, including their most expensive progressive press, with all of its problematic plastic parts,
a couple of bullet molds, a scale and worst of all the Drip-O-Matic bottom spill,
melting pot.
I finally got the press to work fairly well after I sold the powder measure, the bullet feeder and took off the primer set-up.
I might buy another Lee die set but ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE.
I sure wish I had back the quality equipment that I sold for less than I paid for the junk I now have to constantly struggle with.

[btroj]

I can certainly agree with what Buckshot said. Keep it simple at first, you need to learn to use what you have.

Look at the groups Ben has gotten with bullets he pan lubed and ran thru a Lee push thru sizer.

In simple terms- It isn't the quality of the equipment used that matters, it is the skill of the user! A new guy using the best equipment available is still a new guy. He will make rookie mistakes.

Buy something, anything, and learn to use it! Great ammo can be made with a pot over a fire, a ladle, and a Lee mould.

This is not an equipment race, it is a skills test. Buy it, learn to use it, succeed. Not sure how to make it more simple than that.

[canyon-ghost]

I bought the Lyman Master Casting kit, it's a good value for the lubesizer alone. I ladle cast with two cavity molds. It's alright, if you have whole afternoons to do it with. I have Lyman iron two cavity molds. They're fine, some are great but, they're all heavy. I have some RBCS too. I recently tried Lee and NOE aluminum, really like the lighter weight for ladle casting.

I use Rockchuckers, they are stout presses but, they aren't lightweight either. I don't really need them to be all that stout, heck, what do I need to crush brass cases for? These presses can outlast your desire to use them.

Really, I like my RCBS presses and dies. I like my Lyman two cavity molds. I didn't buy it as a kit but, the Rockchucker kit is built to last. While the molds, some work great for me, others I may as well sell. Some are a thousandth too big for a particular gun, someone else needs them. The important thing is whether you are satisfied with your equipment when you have it. That's all that is going to matter. I do think RCBS and some Redding dies are fantastic. And, I've used them to shoot competitively.

PS: The two stick Maxitorque was a Model Eleven eleven Mack truck, the rest were practice. Lol. That 5&4 gearbox wasn't all that tough.

[canyon-ghost]

The Automatic transmission, or Progressive presses: Your best deal there is Dillon and the 550 press. I had one used, never used it. My problem with them is the powder drop, it seems you'd get some swings in the amount of powder used. I use a Redding #3 with micrometer and the scale pan, weigh it and trickle in the last bit. It's much more consistent but, has the disadvantage of being slower. It's a benchrest technique. I get very good ammunition.

Those progressive presses are like anything with automation, when it stops, it's a trainwreck to figure out.

[Ben]

Ditto ! to what Buckshot has just said ! !

nose first push through from the base dies are THE most accurate way to size there is.

[edler7]

I understand about wanting quality equipment. “The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory." If you can afford it, there's no better way to get things started. With that in mind...

Miha (MP) molds, or Accurate molds. Both are top notch. 4 cavity should be able to keep up with your needs.
Star lubrisizer and heater. If you want to go all the way, get the air fed lube option.
RCBS Pro Melt Furnace, or the Magma.
A good quality hot plate.
A good quality 1" micrometer- Starret is considered top of the line.
Welding gloves, apron, face shield.
Turkey fryer, ingot mold and dutch oven or melting pot for making ingots.

I figure all this would run about $1300 give or take options, what you can find on sale, or used but still has a lot of life in it, or what you would already have laying around.

Then there are incidentals like a couple pans for lube making, lube ingredients, flux for the pot...that kind of stuff that is more out of pocket than initial big dollar outlay.

Follow Buckshot's advice on slugging the barrels, otherwise you are swimming upstream from the start. FIT IS KING in the cast bullet game.

[cbrick]

I gotta agree completely with Longwood,

The OP states repeatedly that he wants quality equipment that will last a lifetime and won't need constant tinkering with to make it work or keep it working or need constant replacement, the first post right out of the box is to buy LEE, the very equipment that will assure all of that.

My suggestions are:

Magma Master Caster 40 pound pot, built like a tank and will outlast you. It will heat to casting temp 40 pounds of alloy in about 10 minutes longer than the RCBS does 20 pounds. I have had mine for several years and I'm still waiting for the first drip.

For molds RCBS has always been a high quality mold but in the last few years has really stepped up the quality control and they have a huge selection of great bullet designs. Then of course, M-P, NOE, Accurate, Mountain Molds, LBT. For molds this really is the golden age of bullet casting.

Most any ladle will do but for size selection I go with Rowell, I use #1 for most casting & #2 for large bullets in multi cav molds.

There is only one choice for lubrisizers, get the Star with the air pressure system, you'll end up getting the air pressure anyway and it does make a huge difference. Get the dies from Lathesmith, every bit the quality of magma's dies or better and less expensive. If you want the highest quality don't get something else and invest a bunch of money in dies only to then get the Star latter on anyway and re-buy dies.

Rick

[cbrick]

“The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory."

Very wise words, very true indeed.

Rick

[Longwood]

Very wise words, very true indeed.

Rick

Telling people to buy Lee products is like telling them to shop at the dollar store.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

NOE Moulds
Waage Pot. 50-60lb so by time the pot is getting low, you need to use the bathroom and get another cup of coffee. Oh, yeah, get a 24oz coffee cup.
Turkey cooker with a 6-8qt Dutch Oven. That lets you melt and alloy 100lbs of metal at a time.
Some of Blammer's Ingot Moulds so you can spend a day alloying and then stacking ingots once or twice a year.

I cast my first boolets in 1964. I wish I had had the above listed equipment then, and two each SDB's and 550B's so I did not have to do the primer shuffle.

Rich

[bobthenailer]

I understand about wanting quality equipment. “The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory." If you can afford it, there's no better way to get things started. With that in mind...

Miha (MP) molds, or Accurate molds. Both are top notch. 4 cavity should be able to keep up with your needs.
Star lubrisizer and heater. If you want to go all the way, get the air fed lube option.
RCBS Pro Melt Furnace, or the Magma.
A good quality hot plate.
A good quality 1" micrometer- Starret is considered top of the line.
Welding gloves, apron, face shield.
Turkey fryer, ingot mold and dutch oven or melting pot for making ingots.

I figure all this would run about $1300 give or take options, what you can find on sale, or used but still has a lot of life in it, or what you would already have laying around.

Then there are incidentals like a couple pans for lube making, lube ingredients, flux for the pot...that kind of stuff that is more out of pocket than initial big dollar outlay.

Follow Buckshot's advice on slugging the barrels, otherwise you are swimming upstream from the start. FIT IS KING in the cast bullet game.

I agree with edler7

[Bret4207]

Telling people to buy Lee products is like telling them to shop at the dollar store.

I think you're being a little hard on Lee. Hate their pots, hate their books, not a fan of their progressives, but their dies and moulds are fine. I've seen what it takes to destroy a Lee mould, I did it once. Use some care and they last quite nicely.

[cbrick]

I think you're being a little hard on Lee.

As a very wise man once said . . .

“The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory."

I've had LEE molds and in all honesty I can say . . . never ever again, not even if they were free. Simply not worth the grief and aggravation they caused.

Rick

[Jammer Six]

It looks to me like MP Molds doesn't stock all moulds all the time.

I see a .45 200 SWC, but nothing in 230.

Accurate and Mountain moulds must both have a meplat. (Is that specific to CNC?)

The Mountain site mentions that his moulds will work with the Magma Master Caster. Will all of these moulds work in that machine?

[cbrick]

It looks to me like MP Molds doesn't stock all moulds all the time.

Nope, he doesn't stock anything. All he will have is overruns from group buys. If there is anyone that backs out of a group buy he'll have those in stock until sold, then on to the next group buy.

Rick