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Thread: Converting Berdan primer pockets to Boxer

  1. #181
    Boolit Buddy Twmaster's Avatar
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    You want the drill bit to be the same size as the flash hole you want to make. I used a #44 (.086") bit myself.
    Mike

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  2. #182
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    1/16 '' They are just Ace's best and actualy about .068, being fractional vs decimal, number or letter drills.
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  3. #183
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have converted primer pockets to boxer style a number of different ways. Unless it is impossible to get boxer primed brass in the needed caliber, it is too much trouble, time and effort. Just my opinion.
    Getting old is the best you can hope for.

  4. #184
    Boolit Master Ricochet's Avatar
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    Here's a question/suggestion for those who've found primer pockets too deep for the Boxer primers, as I saw mentioned with Swiss K11 brass: Could the Berdan primer cup be extracted, reseated upside down with the central hole drilled through and swaged for the Boxer primer? That would take up some depth in the floor of the pocket. Just thinking out loud.
    "A cheerful heart is good medicine."

  5. #185
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Ricochet I suspect your right, but it sounds like a lot of work to me.

    But if it is the sort of thing you enjoy tinkering with, I think it "could" work.

    I did drill out one berdan primer, converting it to boxer for a 7.62x54r but I have to admit I have yet to fire it.
    At need I suspect I could do so, but until I have no other choice it is easier to pay a little more for Privi Partizan and get reloadable brass.

  6. #186
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    I have read of soldiering the primer rim in and then or before removing the bottom of the cup. The only problem I see is that if the inverted cup is not fixed it may pull out during decaping.
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  7. #187
    Boolit Master
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    I know this is an old thread but I need to add to it some. I recently picked up two bricks of the .217 berdan primers at a local gun show. I've been shooting 30-06 berdan primed brass and was real happy to find more .217 sized primers for my reloads.
    Being a brass rat I have a lot of the 7.62x54r large berdan primed brass laying around so I decided to give a try converting the large sized berdan primed brass into the smaller and more common .217 berdan primer.
    I started with some steel cases just to see if what was itching my brain would work and so far am happy with the procedure which is as follows.
    I drilled the face of the large primer out using a .209 drill bit trying not to hit the anvil by chucking the case up in a mini metal lathe. I would think that a drill press would be accurate enough for this also but using a hand drill would wander too much. The outer cup of the large primer is still in place just like the boxer conversion in this thread. To remove the flange or remnant of the large primer's face I used a 3/16 inch drill that had the point ground off so just the outer edges of the cutting tip was left. This opened the new primer pocket up just enough so the .217 berdan primer will line up properly. After that the new primer pocket gets cleaned up with a knife blade to remove any burrs or irregularities left from the drilling.
    So far I've converted about 50 7.62x54r brass cases. The only drawback is that the .217 primers are recessed by about 15 thousands but test firing them in my 91/30 works fine.
    No pictures yet and need to get over to the range with the 10 full powered rounds Which I've loaded using 48 grains of H414 pushing a .311 150 grain J bullet.
    More to follow with puctures.

  8. #188
    Boolit Buddy Twmaster's Avatar
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    Interesting process. Pics will be nice to see. Thanks!
    Mike

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  9. #189
    Boolit Master
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    Got out to the reloading bench and took some pictures of the procedure, some are a little blurry but they show the steps for the conversion.Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	177468 The first picture is of a paper and masking tape sleeve which is used to protect the case from the jaws of the chuck. The top case shows what can happen if the jaws come loose. The sleeve has been marked with an index mark where the tape and paper have been doubled up. If the case is chucked up with a jaw on the thicker section of the sleeve the case will turn out of centric and the primer pocket will be way off. The next two show drilling the face of the larger berdan primer, first pass is with a .209 drill down to where the bit just hits the berdan anvil, the second pass is with a 3/16th drill that has the point ground off so it just cuts the remaining flange or face of the cup left from step one. I run the drill in till it also just barely hits the anvil.The last picture shows some of the coverted cases along with regular boxer primed brass and .217 berdan primed brass. The top row has 4 large to small berdan conversions, two .217 berdan reloads and two boxer primed reloads. The middle row has one large berdan primed brass, one conversion that didn't work and two small berdan cases ready for priming. The bottom row shows a large berdan primed case, the case that has been drill (from the previous pictures) and is ready for the primer hole to be cleaned with a knife tip and two large to small unprimed berdan conversions. Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #190
    Boolit Master
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    I would think the same could be done with a drill press as long as the drilling out of the primer face is done carefully. One difference between the boxer and berdan conversion is that the center of the berdan primer gets center punched in for boxers. I tried it and found center punching the berdan primer pushed the face of the primer down onto the anvil. This caused the tip of the drill bit to cut the tip of the anvil out while drilling the face of the primer which made the case useless for the smaller berdan primer but great for a boxer conversion.
    My success rate is around 80% with most of the problems occuring early on while I was still fine tuning the procedure and most of the brass I worked with was free. With 7.62x54r steel surplus drying up converting large berdan primed brass over to either boxer or small berdan primers is an option although just going out and buying brass is the best. I would think that this would work for .303 Brit and other berdan primed brass also. One thing I noted, the conversion recesses the smaller berdan primer about 15 to 20 thousands. I'm reloading for a 1942 91/30 which has no problems hitting the primers but some rifles might not have their firing pin go out far enough to set off the primer. I would try one or two conversions before doing a lot. Hope this helped
    Last edited by Eddie2002; 09-25-2016 at 07:00 PM.

  11. #191
    Boolit Buddy Twmaster's Avatar
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    That's a good way to do that. Looks like a Unimat lathe? I use an ER collet chuck on my little bench lathe so no worry about a 3 jaw damaging the brass.

    I'd honestly not trust a drill press to the job. I've never seen (outside of a machine shop) one without too much runout.
    Mike

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  12. #192
    Boolit Buddy dsbock's Avatar
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    Mike,

    Do you have a source for the collet chuck you use? I've been trying to figure out a way to hold cases in my lathe without damaging them.

    Thanks.

    David
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  13. #193
    Boolit Buddy Twmaster's Avatar
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    I made my collet chuck on the lathe.
    Mike

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  14. #194
    Boolit Buddy dsbock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twmaster View Post
    I made my collet chuck on the lathe.
    Do you have any pictures or dimensions?

    Thanks.

    David
    Cats are fun and magical when you can't smell their poop! Fresh Step!

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  15. #195
    Boolit Mold
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    I've developed a slight variation on Larry's method for converting Berdan brass to Boxer. Those who find the other methods too much trouble will like this one even less -- but it seems to give excellent brass in situations where the straight approach doesn't.

    A mini lathe is the only practical way to do this method.

    I started with a whole bunch of Berdan Yugo brass both 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R. And more time than money.

    The 7.62x54 can be done as Larry outlines, using the .217 LR Berdan primer shell as a bushing to hold a Boxer LR primer -- CCI #200. This brass has a crimped primer and I didn't bother swaging; just drilled it with a #2 centerdrill, then #4 twist drill and pressed in the primers using a Lee ram primer. No sign of any issues.

    Problems showed up when I tried the 7.62x39 brass. These primers are sealed but NOT crimped. No matter what I did -- slight variations in drill size, swaging/not swaging, etc. -- I could not get a solid bushing. Sometimes the primer shell fell out during the drilling, sometimes it slipped and crumpled under the primer or swage ... it sometimes worked, but mostly didn't.

    What has worked well is to drill out the whole works and swage in a brass bushing.

    1. Centerdrill #2: This removes most of the primer top and drills a flash hole.

    2. Grind an 0.25 counterbore to about 0.248 and fit a pilot drill -- roughly #41, whatever fits -- just barely above the face. Bore to 0.125" depth: Without a digital readout this must be done by feel but it's do-able after a bit of practice. I check each case for depth and discard any over 0.127. Don't try to rechuck to deepen as the hole will nearly always be enlarged and you need a very uniform OD.

    The pilot drill is the right size to chamfer the flash hole.

    3. Make brass sleeves from 1/4" brass rod. This stuff typically varies +/- 0.001 so buy enough for a whole bunch of cases at one time -- 6' will make close to 300 sleeves. Ideally the bushing OD is larger than your c'bore by 0.002 or 3. Drill #5 for rod closer to 0.251; if you have a good fit with that and then get a smaller dia. piece, you can fudge by drilling #6.

    Chamfer the starting end of the bushing slightly with a file to ease starting.

    These sleeves must be a press fit: Pushing halfway in with your thumb is okay, so is 'can barely start.'

    I made a lathe tool with a 1/8" slot that faces off the far end of the sleeve and also parts it off at the right length. So all the sleeves are exactly the right length.

    4. I used the upper part (post) of the RCBS primer pocket swager and the lower part of the Lee ram primer WITHOUT the cup, spring, and supporting post to press the sleeves home in the cases.

    5. After pushing sleeves into all the cases I used a Lee collet-type neck resizing die to resize them. To get the most reloads from each case you want to shoot it in the same rifle each time and resize JUST the neck, USING A COLLET rather than a push-it-in-a-die-pull-out-a-ball type. The latter works the brass far more than just using a collet to squeeze the neck on a (slightly undersize) mandrel, so more hardening and cracking will happen sooner.

    Lee makes a collet-type die set for 7.62x39 but it's for .308 bullets. If you're shooting a European rifle (CZ, SKS) you probably are using .310 bullets. Lee will make you a custom mandrel for a very reasonable fee; check with them to see how you get the upper bushing it fits through in the die set. An alternative is to buy .303 Brit mandrels -- they come in 3-packs and are about 0.3085 dia. for a bullet of around .3105 -- and make your own custom size using your lathe. In that case you bore out the upper bushing to match your mandrel.

    Lee's instructions for this die set have words of wisdom on proper sizing. NOTE: Lee doesn't recommend neck-only resizing for semi-auto rifles -- only for bolt guns.

    (Lee does not seem to make a collet die for 7.62x54R but you can rework a 30-06 die to do the job. The collet must be shortened at the bottom, a plug made to take up space above the upper bushing, and the same process of making a mandrel and adapting the upper bushing is needed. Use with the 7.62x54R shell holder, of course.)

    6. Use the RCBS primer pocket swager to swage the sleeves.

    7. Use the Lee ram primer to insert primers and proceed as normally for primed cases.

    I didn't plug the Berdan flash holes: This seems to have no effect on the results. NO signs of excessive pressure (full military loads) and normal MV's. My impression is that this ammo is very accurate (when other factors are correct), just as Lee says for collet-type resizing.

    In a few dozen cases the only undesirable result has been a couple where there was a very slight leak around the primer: On close examination I found that these primers had been torn up one side by hanging up when pressed in. I'm now more careful to swage the sleeve to full depth and inspect the primed cases carefully.

    This IS a lot of work for the first reload, but if you have a few hundred rounds and you have the time it should yield a lifetime supply of reloadable cases.
    Last edited by nuthershooter; 11-19-2016 at 09:54 PM.

  16. #196
    Boolit Buddy Twmaster's Avatar
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    That's one heck of a write up. Thank you. While I can follow along (I grok all the steps and know how to run a lathe) others may benefit if you were to take some photos next time you convert some cases.
    Mike

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  17. #197
    Boolit Master
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    That's a great way to convert berdan brass over to boxer. Not having a military crimp on some of the large berdan primers was always a problem when I tried to convert brass over. I played around with making a reducer bushing out of some hobby store brass tubing but never could get it tight enough in the primer pocket. I was even thinking about soft soldering the bushing in but that could open up a big can of worms if not done right.
    Haven't had a chance to get out to the range with the large to small converted berdan 7.62x54r loads yet.

  18. #198
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twmaster View Post
    That's one heck of a write up. Thank you. While I can follow along (I grok all the steps and know how to run a lathe) others may benefit if you were to take some photos next time you convert some cases.
    Thanks! I'm sure you're right about pictures helping others and they do make a post more interesting. My thinking was that only someone sufficiently lathe-skilled (and equipped) to work from the description would be able to do this anyway as there are several places requiring some feel for the work, judgment, etc.

    Add to that the fact that it's really about the same price as loading from new (Boxer) brass unless you have or get substantial quantities of the Berdan stuff for free and there just aren't going to be very many people who want to do this.

    I kind of backed into it myself. I had the lathe etc., and had been buying and shooting milsurp steel case 7.62x54R and 7.62x39. I found that this ammo could be very substantially improved accuracy-wise by pulling it apart and reloading it with decent bullets and precisely weighed charges of the original powder -- still pretty cheap. I didn't even think about re-using the steel cases.

    THEN I got some brass cased (Yugo) milsurp of both sizes and for a time shot that, discarding the cases.

    But hey -- Could I re-use those beautiful cases? At this point they were basically free. I found this excellent thread and was able to do the 54R stuff using the original primer shell as the bushing. Couldn't make that work for the 39 though, so I started experimenting.

    Soldering SHOULD work: Brass loses its temper somewhere north of 500F while eutectic solder melts around 361F -- but temperature control is tough when soldering and I found it impossible to get a really good joint: The old primer still wasn't really retained firmly enough. A potentially dangerous technique that didn't work well ... yeah that's a loser.

    I had 1/4" brass rod stock (0.251), bought a 1/4" counterbore, used a Dremel on it while spinning to reduce the dia. to 0.248, and started experimenting. I bought the Lee ram prime, used it to seat the bushings and an RCBS primer pocket swaging tool to swage them. So there's most of $100 in additional tooling.

    This process makes no sense unless you have the brass anyway, have the lathe (preferably with a collet system rather than jaw-type chuck), and some experience, and enjoy manufacturing-type operations. To get the best case life you have to set up for neck-only resizing using the Lee collet system; for 7.62x54R you'll have to make your own tool since Lee doesn't. And -- since I figure the complete conversion of a case takes around 10 minutes -- your time can't have a dollar value.

    People build model ships in bottles and when they get done they can say "Look -- I built a model ship in a bottle." This makes equally good sense.

    However I'll try to get pictures in a future run.

  19. #199
    Boolit Buddy Twmaster's Avatar
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    You Sir are preaching to the choir. I have tools and the desire to be able to sit back and marvel at my handi-work.

    It just never seems to dawn on some folks that while, yea, I can go buy brass, this, to me, is fun and a pass time.

    Thanks for the write-up.

    Also as an FYI, I have reloaded steel cases just to see what was involved. Most will pop the primer with water and a close fitting punch. I use a 1/4" driver handle.

    I even shot a magazine full of the reloaded steel case over this weekend. My AK seems to like them. Now having proved it works I'll not be doing that again unless we get into a bad ammo situation. Or I get *really* bored.
    Mike

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  20. #200
    Boolit Buddy
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    I was using Larry's method, wondering how I was going too keep the cases in a vise and not crush some (most)... I was going to create some mouths out of wooden blocks and came on an idea:

    I seat a Lee trim die for the caliber upside down in the press and place the case in it... do the drilling, and remove it by wedging a small blade screw drive under the rim and nudge it up until I can pull it right out of the case.

    The cases are well supported and the press isn't going anywhere.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check