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Thread: Lyman 311299 vs. 314299

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Lyman 311299 vs. 314299

    Iv'e been shooting cast bullets for about a year now. I purchased a Lyman 311299 by recommendation from an experienced boolit caster. I cast for an '03 Springfield as well as a .30-40 cutdown rifle. I got better results with cast bullets out of the Springfield becaust the bore was old and tired. The Krag has a much better bore but is slugged at .309. I have seen post here about the fatter .30 mould.

    The Springfield has had a new Douglas barrel installed and hasn't been fired yet because of the weather. Any suggestiond from you experienced casters and shooters about the pro's and cons of both?? I size the boolits to .311 on an old Lyman 450. The nose of this boolit mikes at .300.

    Thanks in advance

    Shiloh
    Last edited by Shiloh; 03-16-2007 at 06:29 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    Boolit Man
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    Why not try sizing to bore dia. and try at bore plus .001. Of course the hardness of your bullets can make all the difference also. Lube has an effect. Generally I've found that the velocity of between 12 to 1400 fps has made outstanding groups for me with the 30-40 and the 30-06 in a number of different rifles I sot these loads through. I just never could figure out why that range of velocity seems to work so well in so many different rifles. I still scratch my head over that one?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Question Lower Velocities = better accuracy ??

    Do the slower velocities allow the boolit to "grab" the rifling better than higher velocities? It seems in most cases with cast bullets that the slower velocities give better accuracy? What's the reason?

    Shiloh

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    Try pushing your 311299 into the muzzle of both your Springfield and Krag. If the nose of your boolit engraves slightly, or if the nose fits on top of the lands without wobble, all is well. If the nose is loose, then a trial with 314299 might pay off. I bought a 314299 for my No. 4 Enfield. The nose engraves in the muzzle of my No. 4, and also fits the same way in a star gauged Springfield, a carbinized Krag, and a like-new 7.65 Argentine Mauser. The 314299 with its .303" nose is very accurate in all of these rifles. I have a Lyman 311291 mould with a .300" nose that is a wobbling fit in all of them, and accuracy is so-so. I size the 314299 to a dameter .001" to .002" larger than groove diameter for each of these rifles, .310" for the Krag and Springfield, .312" for the Argentine Mauser, and .314" for the Enfield No. 4.
    Eagles have talons, buzzards don't. The Second Amendment empowers us to be eagles. curmudgeon

  5. #5
    Boolit Master leftiye's Avatar
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    My suspicion as to the reason of the lower velocity loads shoot more accurately is that they are lower pressure loads and so not deform the boolits due to pressures that exceed their fail strength. Also, leading may not even be on the horizon with good(and correct) lubes at these velocities. You can shoot pure lead accurately at 1400 fps with the right powder. This assumes that boolit size, and other loading factors are correct also.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    My boolit slides into the muzzle of both rifles with a slight wobble. I can turn it about a quarter turn after it goes in up to the bands. This would suggest that I need to try a boolit with a wider nose. I measured several boolits and they run .299 to .300. Do you have any suggestions of molds that have a greater diameter nose other than the 314299? How far down can you size a bullet without distortion or affecting its performance?? Why do the lower velocities give greater accuracy? Thanks in advance.

    Shiloh

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Thanks for the answers regarding velocities folks!!

    Shiloh

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiloh View Post
    My boolit slides into the muzzle of both rifles with a slight wobble. I can turn it about a quarter turn after it goes in up to the bands. This would suggest that I need to try a boolit with a wider nose. I measured several boolits and they run .299 to .300. Do you have any suggestions of molds that have a greater diameter nose other than the 314299? How far down can you size a bullet without distortion or affecting its performance?? Why do the lower velocities give greater accuracy? Thanks in advance.

    Shiloh
    Shiloh, If you can turn the boolit only about a quarter turn after it goes in up to the bands, it may be close to a bore riding fit. You should give it a try, some of this stuff is very scientific, and some of it is black magic. No suggestions here about nose diameter of other boolits, that is a specification not quoted by the makers. I frequently size boolits down .004" without ill effect. Years ago, Bob Milek, the late gunwriter, sized .44 pistol boolits down to .41, and 41s down to .357 with good accuracy. He was careful to do this radical sizing AFTER lubing, so that the grease grooves did not collapse. There are posters on this board who have reported sizing .325" boolits to .316" or so for oversize .303 barrels.
    Eagles have talons, buzzards don't. The Second Amendment empowers us to be eagles. curmudgeon

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    How you size a bullet will determine how much it can be sized. Traditional lube-size machines push the bullet into the die with pressure on the nose. The more you have to size the great the pressure on the nose and distortion can take place .

    Size a bullet nose first with pressure on the base and you can reduce the diamter of the bullet more without distortion.

    314299 is quite popular with the boys who shoot 30 cal rifles in the Cast Bullet Association miliatry rifles matches. It is fatter on both the body and the nose than 311299 and gives the shooter more material to work when when fitting the bullet to the barrel.

    In addition to sizing the body, the nose can be sized also in a special die. Buckshot makes great nose sizing dies.

    Springfield 30 cal rifles, Krag and 03/03A3 and cast bullets are a marriage made in shooters heaven.

  10. #10
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    On the question of why slower speeds give better results?- Well, the short answer is they don't. It's just EASIER to get great results at the slower speeds. The faster you push things, relatively speaking, the more your asking of the alloy, lube, design combo. Stick with a slightly oversize, fairly soft, Loverin design at under 1600 in a rifle with a good bore and things usually go well.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NVcurmudgeon View Post
    Try pushing your 311299 into the muzzle of both your Springfield and Krag. If the nose of your boolit engraves slightly, or if the nose fits on top of the lands without wobble, all is well. If the nose is loose, then a trial with 314299 might pay off. I bought a 314299 for my No. 4 Enfield. The nose engraves in the muzzle of my No. 4, and also fits the same way in a star gauged Springfield, a carbinized Krag, and a like-new 7.65 Argentine Mauser. The 314299 with its .303" nose is very accurate in all of these rifles. I have a Lyman 311291 mould with a .300" nose that is a wobbling fit in all of them, and accuracy is so-so. I size the 314299 to a dameter .001" to .002" larger than groove diameter for each of these rifles, .310" for the Krag and Springfield, .312" for the Argentine Mauser, and .314" for the Enfield No. 4.
    The put-the-nose-in-the-muzzle business doesn't do much for me. The chmber end of the rifling in a rifle wears or erodes or goes away, and it does so quickly. Then a bullet that is a tight fit in the muzzle is a loose fit in the chamber end. So the real test is to push the nose into the chamber-end rifling and see how it engraves. Now I have 311299 and 314299 molds and the '4 is slightly bigger than the'1. I've worked with 2 cavity 311 and 314 and 1 cavity 311, the 314's "engrave" more than the 311s, but I can't find the accuracy improvement due to more engraving. Back to "Cast Bullets", Col. Harrison tells us that bore rider are best in 2 groove barrels, as the groove/bore ratio increases, the "goodness" of bore riders decreases.
    I get equal accuracy with 31141 and 308403, with no nose having anything to do with the rifling.
    I'm starting to think that bore riding is a road best untraveled. That 311X99 gives good accuracy, 1 1/4" 5/100 yard 5 group averages in a M54 Win 30WCF and .85" samo in a Martini 30/30. But, 31141 at ~175 gr. is as good and Borton-Darr 185 gr. is better, breech seated. I'm starting to think that we like bore riders because they look nice, I know that the SS breech seaters in head-to-head competition with fixed ammo gas check guys DO hold their own or win. Maybe we should shoot a 200 grain 31141-style and forget the bore rider business.
    It's clear to me that the SS breech seater vs Fixed ammo gas check business is about what happens to the bullet from the case to in-the-rifling. Everything else is about the same, except velocity, where the Fixed ammo guys center on high velocity to beat the wind. The SS guys don't worry about the wind, shoot at 1400 fps and beat the wind beaters a lot.
    How about a .310" cylindrical long throat and gradual reduction to rifling, .3095" bullets aligned by the throat, and maybe 1:14" twist.
    31141 or Loverin may be better solutions than 314299.
    I know I must be flogged for this.
    joe b.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Boolit in the muzzle will sure tell in a hurry if a boolit is too small - move on to something bigger. Then check the breach end. I have some notes from a long time ago about 314299 in '06 using 4064 and zipping them along at a good clip (for a 10-twist) in a Rem 2 groove. The barrel is a swaging device. Regardless of what you do to prep a boolit, it will form to the bbl when fired. To what degree is up to all of the ballistic variables involved.

    That said, I reported last Saturday that I had won the monthly mil bolt match using SAECO #301 with a load I pulled outa my hiney (actually I had a pretty good idea it was gonna work). That boolit is the ultimate bore rider. Again, it was shot in a Rem 2-groover.

    Joe's comment about the 31141 is well taken. One of the better results in a 12 twist .308 I've been fooling with is that very boolit running about 2000. Another showing some promise is the Lee 312-185-1R. Joe's other comment about twist is also well taken. For most of the stuff I do in .30, the 10 twist is simply too fast, but I find a way to make it work. So, no Joe, no flogging.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master in Heavens Range
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    Joe, I think you are coming around, my friend. It was great of you for not relating to "facts" in your last memo. Bore riders work best when gun alignment is poor and when there is enough slop in the case department for the case to move more towards alignment when the action is clamped shut. ... felix
    felix

  14. #14
    Boolit Master in Heavens Range
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    In this new spirit, I will add a little more to your story. Every once in a while some folks report better accuracy by indexing their cartridges. Very true indeed. Cars run better when the tires are not rotated and wear in to what the car likes best. It's the law of nature. Yes, the car and gun need to be more in alignment to be corrected, but so what when the barrel and tires are going to be replaced in the very near future. You can rotate the tires and shoot the gun naturally to make them wear more evenly and give them a little longer life span. It always comes down to optimizing changes necessary to optimize the cost-benefit ratio for what is the objective is. The problem really comes into play when trying to satisfy an objective and goal together. A goal is defined as something you cannot ever define such as happiness, whereas an objective is distinctly measurable such as 250K miles or 1/2 inch groups. ... felix
    felix

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    Fatter Noses

    Both barrels, the Krag and Springfield are 4 groove barrels. I can understand why the boolit would ride better in the wider groove af a 2 groove barrel. From the posts I've read here very good or better accuracy can be obtained wit both type barrels.
    If the nose is bigger than the groove so that it is engraved, does this contribute or detract from potential accuracy?

    What I want to do is determine which mold is best for my rifles without the continued purchase and tryin of boolit moulds. I will try and obtain a ssmall supply of the 314299 bullets with the fatter nose to see if that helps my accuracy problem.
    I'm not opposed to acquiring additional moulds, just not to try them for the trial and error purpose. That could be an expensive proposition and wind up with a bunch of moulds that are not suitable.

    I'll continue to ask questions and peruse this and other cast boolit forums to gain knowledge from those who have already made and remedied their mistakes.
    Thanks for the info folks!!

    Shiloh

  16. #16
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Send me a PM with your address and I'll be happy to send down some 314299 boolits cast from WW, water quenched. I can size them .313 for you with Felix lube or send them down as cast.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Jacketed bullets - what a relic, a throwback to the twentieth century. Real men shoot cast.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master at Heaven's Range 2010

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    30 cal

    I have a 1903/made in 1913.because of the low number I only shoot cast bullets
    my load is 13 gr.red dot with .311291ww it is very accurate.crony at 1680fs. 2 groove barrels are supposed to be good with cast bullets.I us this same bullet in all my .30/31cal guns.my be one of you can try it and report.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check