accuracy from a new Win 45-70, expecting too much?

[EDG]

>>Noted, that's something I did not know, does this apply to cast only or jacketed bullets too? <<
I got excellent accuracy out of jacketed bullets at with the old Elmer Keith load for the 1886. It was 53 grains of 3031 with a 400 grain bullet. This is NOT a load recommendation for older weaker rifles or older weaker men.
I have also gotten good accuracy from 500 grain jacketed bullets in a 45-70 but they produce too much recoil at the higher velocities.

[TXGunNut]

2. This is a hunting rifle. This is not a target rifle. I have no desire to shoot BP, the cleaning on my muzzle loader is enough to reinforce that. I posted quite clearly that I was looking for a load that will give me ~2100 from a 300 to 350 or ~1600 from a 405. That 350 load gives me a 1.5 mil drop at 200 yards and 2.5 mils at 250 yards from a 100 yard zero. That makes for accurate hold overs and accurate shot placement if I can get it to work. It is my expectation that I could find a node somewhere between 2000 and 2200 for a 300 to 350 class bullet. -XTR


As others have pointed out the 45-70 seems happiest at velocities substantially below the ones you seek to attain. I've tried loads in those ranges and it was unpleasant for me and accuracy suffered as well. Long range for me is 150 yds so boolit drop is not a factor. Long range shooting with a 45-70 is more about being familiar with trajectory, not trying to minimize it. Low-speed big bore leverguns and SS rifles are a nice change of pace from bolt guns and bottle-neck cartridges. Don't rule out BP; when properly loaded it cleans up faster and easier than any bolt gun I've fired with smokeless and J-bullets. Honest. Once you get them figured out they'll always have a special place in your heart...and gun safe.

[NSB]

I just got in from shooting all day. I spent a lot of time today working with my Winchester/Miroku High Wall in 45-70. Just about every load I shot today with 405 grain JHP bullets at 1200-1400fps shot just under or just over an inch for five shots at 100yds. I still haven't gotten it to shoot cast but I'm working on it. As I said earlier, lower velocities shoot very well in this gun. As the speed goes up the groups open up in my experience. If you really want high velocity and flatter trajectory I think you've just picked the wrong platform to work with. As others have said, it's a game of knowing your gun, trajectory, and distance to the target. It just isn't going to be a flat shooting tack driver. You probably could sell it easily enough and get something better suited to your expectations, or just enjoy it for what it is. It really is a game of its own.

[MtGun44]

Try Rem 405 Jbullets over 57 gr of W748. This is a load that works very well for me
and you should be using a scope with at least 4 power for load development. More
is better for bench work. How steady are you, how good is the trigger? Cheap scopes
bounce the internals around at each shot and can add a couple MOA to the group
because the crosshairs reset their position a bit at each shot.

The load above runs about 1750 fps, yet is low pressure, OK for trapdoors. I use
a mag primer to ensure ignition, but have not carefully tested whether reg primers
would give the same results.

Bill

[torpedoman]

first thing i would do is try imr4198 powder it just seems to work better in 45-70.

[calkar]

Take a good chamber cast and you will probably find a crooked throat, I fought with a Rem 700 for a year. Understood after looking at chamber cast. Every boolit was damaged upon firing.

[XTR]

Finally got around to slugging my barrel.

0.456 bore

So for shooting cast boolits what size should they be? I've got a bunch of .458/9 cast, should I be running them in a .457 sizer? or is .458 a good fit?

[45r]

My win sporter shoots every boolit pretty good sized 459.My mold from BRP,Mtn Mold, and several factory molds shoot 1 inch 3 shot groups with 5 going under 2 inch easy.My sporter will shoot 1 inch groups using sierra 300 grain condum bullets over 51 grains IMR 4198.I've found my sporter to be pretty easy to shoot well and like it.Single shot rifles like leverguns need to be tucked in with both hands and the front of the forestock on the front bag just enough to steady the crosswires.Any pressure put on the stocks and any change in hold will mess up groups.Kinda hard to explain but once you get a consistantant hold with no down pressures you'll see the groups get good.Two piece stocked rifles need their own type of bench shooting.

[PanaDP]

Since you've got no throat, why don't you try a bore diameter paper patched bullet over as much black powder as the case will hold. That's pretty much how that rifle was originally designed to shoot.

[August]

With a HEAVY barrel, lead projectiles, and black powder propellant, they'll keep up with most modern rifles.

[rbertalotto]

Let me chime in here..........

I have five 45-70 rifles (six if you count my Double Rifle, but that's another conversation). I have the following:

Pedersoli 1874 Sharps
Pedersoli 1871 Rolling Block
1886 Winchester TD (Japan)
1895 Marlin CB
And
1885 Winchester BPCR with the fancy Badger barrel, beautiful wood etc.

The worse accuracy is with the 1885 Winchester. All the other rifles will out shoot it no matter what I use for ammunition.

I put an $800 modern scope on the 1885 for load development, I put a Malcolm scope on it to be "Period Correct", I recently installed a Lee Shaver tang and globe. I've tried just about every bullet you can think would shoot well. Most I cast myself and folks from this forum have sent me some. I've used various alloys and lubes.

When ever I go to the range, I bring the 1885 and one of the others. Shooting the same ammo all the other rifles will shoot under 3" at 100 yards and the 1885 will shoot two or three close and but the rest of the 5 shot group will open it up to 8".

I'm going to rechamber my 1885 with a reamer I'm having ground just like the Pedersoli chambers. There is zero freebore in the Winchester 1885. NONE! I have to load Lyman 457-125 so deep that they intrude on the powder room.

Lately I started shooting Black Powder. The 1885 started to respond very favorably. But still not close to the Pedersolis. The Pedersoli Sharps, with black powder and the Lyman 457-125 with SPG lube is a freak'n benchrest rifle. It wears a long Malcolm scope and it will shoot under 1" at 100 yards for five shots! Simply amazing rifle. I haven't had the rolling block long enough, and it has a terrible trigger (the Sharps has a set trigger), but it is showing very good promise.

So to answer your question......Me and others I've talked to with these fancy Winchester 1885 rifles are frustrated. These are not inexpensive guns, but it's embarrassing when rifles that cost half as much out shoot them.

But this is what makes all this fun.................right?

[Don McDowell]

Your loads for that winchester bpcr, must really be junk, either that or you've got the thing so full of lead the barrel is more like a water pipe. I've yet to see one of those rifles that isn't capable of going from the box to the firing line and being in the top placing rifles....
Matter of fact that's just exactly what the one I bought for my wife did. Using loads that had been worked up for a C Sharps it shot really really well. When I built bp loads specifically for that rifle it's just simply amazing how well it shoots. Have yet to put any smokeless thru it probably never will.

[Chill Wills]

rbertalotto, Check and see if that rifle IS a 45-70.
Also, you got me wondering. One rifle might be a lemon but a bunch that you know of that don't group ??????????? that makes me wonder...

As Don said, you might really work on that bore and get all the lead out.

Failing that, For the right price I will take it off your hands.

All the best,

[Gunlaker]

Roy sometimes these rifles can be tricky to get to shoot. I have one of those BPCR's but I haven't shot it much so have no idea how well it will ultimately work. But they often do quite well in the Silhouette matches when I read the results in the BPCN.

As an example of how tricky thay can be, I have a C. Sharps 1885 in .45-70 that simply refused to group under about 2.5 moa with traditional lead bullets and black powder. This particular rifle was not an example of CSA's best work for a few reasons. I joined the "mould of the month" club and tried everything I could think of. On the advice of others I did a chamber cast. I found that the freebore on this rifle was significantly larger than groove diameter. After exchanging some messages with Dan Theodore I had a mould made by Steve Brooks that fits the freebore and has the first two band at bore diameter. First time at the range with the new bullet it put seven shots into about 3/4" of vertical at 100m.

I think that in this game it's easy to get a rifle shooting well if the chamber is cut just right. If the chamber is not, then you've got a tougher time, but then it's time to break out the Cerrosafe and do some investigating.

With respect to the Browning BPCR I do know that mine also has no significant freebore as well. I do have a feeling that it will shoot paper patched bullets well, particularly if they are seated way out.

Chris.

[Texantothecore]

The high mass bullets such as the .45-70 do well in the 950 to 1200 hundred fps range. One of my friends who shoots long range claims that his Highwall has never had a bullet of 1000 FPS through the barrel.

You might also try the Lyman Postell at 535 grns.

[XTR]

quick update

Range time today with the 45-70, finally. F class comps and practice get most of my time this time of yr.

I learned a couple of things.

If I am going to shoot cast 405s I need to lighten the loads more. The 80 degree weather today probably contributed some but all my loads were hotter than I expected, and I fired nothing that I would consider a "group" unless getting it on the target stand counts. I made up loads with both Meister and Oregon Trial 405s with 3 different loads with 3 different powders.

The Oregon Trail laser cast were really all over the place, not even on an 8.5x11 sheet, and the MVs had a lot of ES. The Meisters did better, the ES were reasonable, but were still just keeping all the shots on the paper.

That said, I was getting MVs of ~1700 from the loads, I was looking for 1500 to 1600.

I did get my 300 gn jacketed to print about 2.5 to 3" groups at 2100FPS which is still 100 FPS faster than I was shooting for. Both of those had one flyer that broke the group otherwise they were 2" or less. I had 3 loads with two powders that I thought would bracket 2000 and both were 2100 at the lowest charge so back to the drawing board wth that one but I did get decent groups.

I went to the range with close to 90 rounds loaded, and I ended up with a lot of bullets to pull down before I try again. Once I saw the MVs I was getting with the lowest loads I never did run through a ladder.

I wasn't shooting like I was trying to fend off a Comanche raiding party, but I was pounding away pretty quickly. The barrel got warmed up till I started noticing mirage in the scope. So, all things considered I'm happier. I think the problems I've had with the 350 J bullets is because the ogive is too short and they hit the lands the 300s taper quickly so they get a good little jump to the lands.

I think my cast problems are 2 fold. The nose on the Oregon Trail being to big and jamming in the lands of having to be seated silly deep, and pushing them too fast.

[Just Duke]

Get all the copper out. Don't shoot copper anymore. Make an impact slug of the chamber and throat. Make your loaded case "neck" diameter have less than .001" clearance to the chamber neck by sizing the boolit accordingly.

Use heavier boolits, at least 500-grain,

and quit trying for light boolits at 2K fps.

Gear

What he said

Should mic out .458. Mine are all dead on.

[torpedoman]

Shooting fundamentals are the same for 22LR or 45-70. What will need to be different?

you can law that 22 in your palm and shoot fine groups all day.
Now that 45-70 just ain't gonna work thata way. you grip on the forearm is going to have to be tight and consistent to control muzzle rose with recoil you are going to have to be very consistent with it to get good groups.
just over 2 in group at 200 yds is a great group. what big game animal has a heart smaller than 2 inches that this degree of accuracy would cause you to miss?

[405]

XTR,
I usually don't get into these large dog piles but... what the hey. Usually those Miroku guns are very well made. I've seen them shoot cast extremely well. There is an off chance that you have a lemon. But I doubt it. Next, comparing these large caliber, single shots to high power, scoped bench guns is like apples to oranges. I noticed you said you slugged the bore and got .456". I assume you mean you measured the groove diameter?? That sounds really fairly tight... and it could be exactly that- dunno? Next you mentioned Oregon Trail and Meister. I don't know any serious cast bullet target shooter using those. Next, I notice you take a lot of different rounds to the range and shoot and shoot and shoot. Also, you mix copper and lead shooting. All the above leads me to believe you may need to slow down and do one thing at a time and really study the advice of those who do shoot small groups with these type guns. Then put all the stuff you have learned as a habit about high power, Jbullet, accurate, high velocity target shooting far in the back of your mind. This stuff is different.

The 45-70 and other old, big, slow cast bullet shooting, blackpowder era type cartridges and guns seem to always do better in those parameters than in those of the high vel, high pressure modern Jbullet. Clean the slate. Re-slug the bore with a well lubed, soft slug just to verify that .456". If that number is correct, you'd probably be better off with a gas checked bullet sized to .456-7" loaded to about 1250 fps and a BHN of 11 and no harder than about 14. A powder like 5744 is ideal for doing that job. Bullets in the 400-425 gr range are as good as any to start with. If they don't work then maybe try a 500 grainer. Beware! some bullets that "look sexy" don't always prove to be so. The Lyman 457671 GC looks so good yet shoots poorly in every rifle I have and has been tried by other shooters I know with the same poor result. Yet, the common un-sexy RCBS 405FN GC seems to shoot well in everything! Load no more than 10. Go to the range. Set up with a good rest. Put up a target suitable for a precise sight picture at 100 yards. Shoot 2 or 3 into a "sighter bull" to foul and warm the bore. Shoot the remainder into the scoring bull, pacing the shots about a minute apart. Clean the bore! Record the results. Change one thing at a time until a "pattern" of accurate combinations emerges. If followed and the above formula doesn't work, then nothing will and the gun may be broke. If you expect 3/4" groups at 300 yards at 2000 fps+ velocities then this is not the way to get there. That's best left for the high power Jbullet guys shooting custom 6BRs and the like. If you want MOA, then these older style cast bullet guns and cartridges should get there. Good Luck!

[XTR]

What he said

Should mic out .458. Mine are all dead on.

Have you calculated the drop on that 500gn bullet at 200 yards?

I clearly stated that I want this rifle to hunt to 200 yards. It will take a three foot hold over from a 100 yard zero for that 500gn boolit at 200, that Hornady 300gn hp on the other hand is only a 12 inch hold over at 2000FPS. At 2000 fps I can hold over .5 mils at 150 and 1.5 at 200 and be dead on. My goal stated somewhere early in this thread is for this to be my go to deer rifle here in TN. I hunt fields that shots at 150 are common and 200 is not uncommon. (and in seasons past I used either my 50cal muzzle loader or a 308win)

I have figured out how to make this rifle do what I want it to do now. If I can get a cast bullet to work out to 200 with a reasonable holdover and I define reasonable at about 3 to 3.5 mils, then I'll shoot one; otherwise I'm going to try to find where cast loads work but that's just for my own information and target practice. Maybe later I'll get a Sharps or a BPCR to get serious with cast. I shoot at 1000 yards about 4 or 5 times a month now with my F class rifle and have access to the range whenever I have time. The idea of vernier sights and a long barreled BPCR appeal to me, but it will have to wait till I'm tired of F class.