accuracy from a new Win 45-70, expecting too much?

[XTR]

Am I expecting too much?

To say I shoot a fair amount is an understatement. In the last couple of yrs I've started shooting F-TR comps so I'm at the range more than most. I reload for precision and I've come to expect a certain measure of accuracy from my rifles.

My rebarreled 30" Krieger barreled 308 is currently in load development printing 200 yard groups in the 2s and 3s. (one 3 shot cloverleaf at .155 moa). THe 308 that I hunt with will print .5 to .75 with 165SMKs. Hell, even my Knight muzzle loader, which it turns out is my absolute deer slayer, will shoot 1.5 or better.

My Highwall 45-70 on the other hand is driving me mad. This is a 24" Miroku manufactured rifle with no throat to speak of.

I've tried cast bullets and jacketed bullets from 300 to 405 grains. Loaded with H322, IMR 3031, Varget, Rx7 and 4198. MVs from about 1600 to 2200 and I cannot get it to group better than 2" at 100 yards.

I finally broke down and shot a 200 yard group last weekend with a load set of 300gn jacketed hollow points and it was just over 2MOA.

At this point there are several hundred rounds down the tube and I'm not happy with the results. I'm not looking for target rifle accuracy, but I would thing that it should shoot 1MOA. That's not too much to ask.


Has anyone else found a load that will shoot tight in these rifles?

Has anyone else done well with cast boolits? My boolit groups have been the worst. I've shot with and w.o GCs from 340s to 405s and they just don't seem to get there.

I'm seriously thinking of having my smith run a reamer into the chamber to give me a little more throat. The way the rifle is today have to seat Hornaday 350gn flat noses in past the cannelure or it won't chamber, and even then the lands put marks on the nose for 30 thousandths.

I am going to make this rifle shoot, or I'm going to learn what it likes to shoot or something. I really like the rifle, I want it to be my regular white tail rifle, but I have got to get it to the point that I am confident of my shot placement out to 200 yards or it isn't going to work. I have a friend who seems a little surprised at my confidence (and success) with my muzzle loader at ranges from 125 to 150. I know the ballistics, I trust the rifle, and it makes dead deer. Over a 200 yard field of fire I'd honestly just as soon carry it as a center fire, this is the rifle that I want to use in it's place muzzle loader season closes and rifle season opens, but right now it's not there.

[bowfin]

but I would thing that it should shoot 1MOA. That's not too much to ask.

I am going to ask a rhetorical question here, but does Winchester guarantee this model of rifle to shoot 1 MOA? If not, then why would you expect it?

It would be impossible for a shooter or hunter to have EVERY rifle bought to be capable of shooting sub MOA groups unless that person got rid of the ones that weren't capable. It used to be that a rifle that shot 1" groups at 100 yards was exceptional. Now, many people think that is the dividing line between adequate and a lemon.

The most often heard comment during sighting in day at the local gun range is "I know this rifle can shoot 1 MOA." When pressed for reasons why the owner thinks that, it basically boils down to, "Because I want it to shoot 1 MOA."

I think the rifle is fine. You need to adjust your expectations accordingly.

[XTR]

It would be impossible for a shooter or hunter to have EVERY rifle bought to be capable of shooting sub MOA groups unless that person got rid of the ones that weren't capable. It used to be that a rifle that shot 1" groups at 100 yards was exceptional. Now, many people think that is the dividing line between adequate and a lemon.

The most often heard comment during sighting in day at the local gun range is "I know this rifle can shoot 1 MOA." When pressed for reasons why the owner thinks that, it basically boils down to, "Because I want it to shoot 1 MOA."

If I can't get it to where I want it I will get rid of it. I've got too much OCD going on to live with it if I can't make it work. Now, that does not preclude me buying a new barrel or getting this one re-chambered. I don't mind paying my smith to make my rifles shoot the way that I want them too.


I shoot bolt actions, and with quality reloads most of the bolt action offerings out there can hold 1 MOA or better if the guy on the trigger knows what he is doing. More often than I hear "I know this rifle can shoot 1 MOA." is "I can't figure out where it's shooting" or "The adjustments must be mounted backwards" (I heard that one twice in the last six months)

I think the rifle is fine. You need to adjust your expectations accordingly.

That may be the case.

The most common thing I see on the forums are claims of sub .5moa groups, or three shot groups on a target with a dozen holes in it.

These are just for load workups at 200 yards, I know they are only 3 round groups. I don't expect my 45-70 to shoot like this, but I expect tighter than 5 inches at 200 yards.

[45 2.1]

At this point there are several hundred rounds down the tube and I'm not happy with the results. I'm not looking for target rifle accuracy, but I would thing that it should shoot 1MOA. That's not too much to ask. No it's not too much to ask of the rifle. How about you though?

Has anyone else done well with cast boolits? Beyond your wildest dreams in the 45-70. As have others on this forum who have learned how.

I'm seriously thinking of having my smith run a reamer into the chamber to give me a little more throat. Don't if you want boolit accuracy.

I am going to make this rifle shoot, or I'm going to learn what it likes to shoot or something. That can be a long road. Be prepared to change your way of thinking and most of what you do.

[XTR]

I think these barrels the rifling is to shallow. 025" per land depth is not enough. I think good rifling is .050" for a total of at least .010".

I need to slug this thing with a sinker and I haven't bothered to get one. I have slugged it with a 45ACP cast, It's what I had around here. I know it's a .453 so I don't get groove depth, but the bore looks to be .450, so if it's a true .458 it has .008 total and a groove depth of .004

[XTR]

I am going to make this rifle shoot, or I'm going to learn what it likes to shoot or something. That can be a long road. Be prepared to change your way of thinking and most of what you do.

I don't understand this one. Making accurate bullets I understand, I do it now.

Doing load workups and getting the most out of a given bullet in a given barrel I get, I do that now.

Shooting fundamentals are the same for 22LR or 45-70. What will need to be different?

[45 2.1]

I don't understand this one. Making accurate bullets I understand, I do it now.

Doing load workups and getting the most out of a given bullet in a given barrel I get, I do that now.

Shooting fundamentals are the same for 22LR or 45-70. What will need to be different?

I have a question for you then............ If you do all these things, then why are you not getting results that you expect? I've been thru this with other folks on this forum and elsewhere. What I said has happened with all of them.

A test for you............. Take a fired case from your rifle, take a punch and flare out the remnants of the crimp and measure with calipers the inside neck diameter of that case. Turn the case on the ID blade of the calipers with a scraping fit. What does it measure? What size were you shooting?

[geargnasher]

I think what 45 2.1 is saying is that you don't understand how to get the most of of this particular barrel, yet. You think you do, because you are working within a paradigm that has worked for your other guns so far, but you will probably need to abandon that thought process in order to master your new .45/70. This is a case of doing the same old thing and automatically thinking "it's the only way" has you trapped in a box that this gun doesn't like.

Gear

{edit} simultaneous post, Bob, I see I read you right.

[NSB]

XTR,
I bought a Winchester/Mir.. last October and ran into the same problems you have. In fact, I posted on here about it and got a lot of good suggestions on what to try (I'm still working on them. They were for cast bullets which is what I want to shoot). I haven't found any cast loads that shoot well out of the gun and I was ready to send it down the highway until last week. I decided to see if the gun actually had any potential to shoot any kind of acceptable group. I took out some 405g jacket bullets (Rem JSP) at 1300 fps and tried them at 100 yds. (I put a scope on the gun to rule out "old eyes"). I got a five shot group that measured 1.1" center to center. I now know the gun has all kind of potential so I'll keep it and keep working with it. If I can't get it to shoot cast, I'll keep it for my deer gun and shoot the jacketed out of it. What I really found frustrating was that I bought a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and can shoot almost any load out of it and most shoot well and some shoot exceptional, and I mean exceptional! Don't give up. I believe the gun will shoot but it's going to take some work to get it there. Good luck.
P.S.- I tried some 300g jacketed and they didn't do too well. Around 2.25" group.

[XTR]

They are about .001 over the bullets being fired. I'm running .458s and .459s, the inside looks to be .460

[wgr]

They are about .001 over the bullets being fired. I'm running .458s and .459s, the inside looks to be .460

the inside looks to be .460 has me thinking . did you mic. it are just look at it

[XTR]

XTR,
I bought a Winchester/Mir.. last October and ran into the same problems you have. In fact, I posted on here about it and got a lot of good suggestions on what to try (I'm still working on them. They were for cast bullets which is what I want to shoot). I haven't found any cast loads that shoot well out of the gun and I was ready to send it down the highway until last week. I decided to see if the gun actually had any potential to shoot any kind of acceptable group. I took out some 405g jacket bullets (Rem JSP) at 1300 fps and tried them at 100 yds. (I put a scope on the gun to rule out "old eyes"). I got a five shot group that measured 1.1" center to center. I now know the gun has all kind of potential so I'll keep it and keep working with it. If I can't get it to shoot cast, I'll keep it for my deer gun and shoot the jacketed out of it. What I really found frustrating was that I bought a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and can shoot almost any load out of it and most shoot well and some shoot exceptional, and I mean exceptional! Don't give up. I believe the gun will shoot but it's going to take some work to get it there. Good luck.
P.S.- I tried some 300g jacketed and they didn't do too well. Around 2.25" group.

Thanks for posting. I found your thread. Other than several other people who are having the same troubles with these rifles I don't see a lot of useful information in there for me. (did see several recommendations not to crimp, which is pretty much where I am now.

I'm looking for a load that will push a 300 to 350 bullet in the neighborhood of 2100, or a 405 in the vicinity of 1600, and shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA.

I think reading here it's pretty obvious that there are more than a few people haveing the same issues with this rifle, be it the 24" Sporter that I have or the 28" Anniversary or the 28" Traditional Hunters. These guns should not be flinging bullets all over the targets. We should be able to build a data base of what works for these guns and leave out the BPCR rifle discussion as it seems to have little to no bearing on these.

Whether they be 1:18 or 1:20 they should stabilize bullets in the 300 to 425 range quite well, so that's not it, and you say that your Pendersoli shoots pretty much anything, so what is the difference?

[XTR]

the inside looks to be .460 has me thinking . did you mic. it are just look at it

My eyeball won't see .001. I used my calipers.

[para45lda]

Calipers?

Anyone else want to take this?

Wes

[Larry Gibson]

XTR

Perhaps your expectations are not what they should be. Consider;

You are expecting the 45-70 sporter weight barreled single shot to shoot as well as you cusom barreled target rifles?

Are you using the same quality and power of scopes/sights on the Winchester 45-70 as on the target rifles?

Are you expecting to target shoot with the 45-70 or hunt with it?

Have you adjusted your bech shooting technique from a one piece target rifle stock to fit a two piece sporter single shot rifle? Consider the more recoil of the lighter weight 45-70 rifle and the 2 piece stock and how it rests on the shooting bags.

Don't you think if target shooting then perhaps a getting a new target style barrel should be in order before expecting targe gun accuracy out of it?

Wouldn't you think that if hunting isn't a 5" group at 200 yards sufficient for big game at probably the max range for the cartridge?

Given the above considerations then a quality .459 cast bullet or a .457 - .458 jacketed bullet should, and does, shoot to the accuracy requirements of a factory produced single shot sporter rifle. Now please don't get me wrong here, I'm not criticising you at all, just trying to help you understand what you've got with that rifle and it's potential. If you want a target rifle then the obvious solution is to have a target rifle built out of it and used as a target rifle.

I shoot target rifles (.223, .308W and '06) also and 45-70 rifles (3 single shots and a Siamese Bolt action). I don't expect my 45-70s, even my target 45-70, to shoot with the same accuracy as my LR target rifles. I am perfectly happy, and competative, with 1 1/2 - 2 moa with 10 shot groups out of my target 45-70. In matches I've seen a lot of 4 - 8" 10 shot groups at 200 yards win. Seen smaller groups ahot also but they are not the norm.

Many claim sub moa accuracy, especially with 3 and 5 shot groups, but they do not give not statistically assurance with that small of a sample. The absolute minimum for statistical assurance is a 7 shot group whether testing fps, psi or group size. SAAMI uses 10 shot test strings. An "average" group size is also not the accuracy capability of any rifle; the largest group fired is the accuracy capability, the average is only the average. If shooting a match of 10 shots then the testing for accuracy with 10 shots is best. If the match calls for 20 shots + 2 sighters then 22 shot test strings for accuracy are best. Only then will you know the "accuracy potential" of the rifle/ammunition for task at hand. I've seen many a HP shooter with a poor score pull the proverbial clover leaf 3 shot group out of his wallet and say the load can shoot! They go off muttering and blame the rifle or something else because their cone of fire really was 3-4 moa not understanding that their "test" of the load used was insufficient. They fail to realise their score is a true indication of the accuracy potential of that load in that rifle because the sample size (60-80 shots + sighters for an NMC) just shot was very good. Again, not criticising, just points to ponder......

Larry Gibson

[XTR]

XTR

Perhaps your expectations are not what they should be. Consider;

You are expecting the 45-70 sporter weight barreled single shot to shoot as well as you cusom barreled target rifles?

Are you using the same quality and power of scopes/sights on the Winchester 45-70 as on the target rifles?

Are you expecting to target shoot with the 45-70 or hunt with it?

Have you adjusted your bech shooting technique from a one piece target rifle stock to fit a two piece sporter single shot rifle? Consider the more recoil of the lighter weight 45-70 rifle and the 2 piece stock and how it rests on the shooting bags.

Don't you think if target shooting then perhaps a getting a new target style barrel should be in order before expecting targe gun accuracy out of it?

Wouldn't you think that if hunting isn't a 5" group at 200 yards sufficient for big game at probably the max range for the cartridge?

Given the above considerations then a quality .459 cast bullet or a .457 - .458 jacketed bullet should, and does, shoot to the accuracy requirements of a factory produced single shot sporter rifle. Now please don't get me wrong here, I'm not criticising you at all, just trying to help you understand what you've got with that rifle and it's potential. If you want a target rifle then the obvious solution is to have a target rifle built out of it and used as a target rifle.

I shoot target rifles (.223, .308W and '06) also and 45-70 rifles (3 single shots and a Siamese Bolt action). I don't expect my 45-70s, even my target 45-70, to shoot with the same accuracy as my LR target rifles. I am perfectly happy, and competative, with 1 1/2 - 2 moa with 10 shot groups out of my target 45-70. In matches I've seen a lot of 4 - 8" 10 shot groups at 200 yards win. Seen smaller groups ahot also but they are not the norm.

Many claim sub moa accuracy, especially with 3 and 5 shot groups, but they do not give not statistically assurance with that small of a sample. The absolute minimum for statistical assurance is a 7 shot group whether testing fps, psi or group size. SAAMI uses 10 shot test strings. An "average" group size is also not the accuracy capability of any rifle; the largest group fired is the accuracy capability, the average is only the average. If shooting a match of 10 shots then the testing for accuracy with 10 shots is best. If the match calls for 20 shots + 2 sighters then 22 shot test strings for accuracy are best. Only then will you know the "accuracy potential" of the rifle/ammunition for task at hand. I've seen many a HP shooter with a poor score pull the proverbial clover leaf 3 shot group out of his wallet and say the load can shoot! They go off muttering and blame the rifle or something else because their cone of fire really was 3-4 moa not understanding that their "test" of the load used was insufficient. They fail to realise their score is a true indication of the accuracy potential of that load in that rifle because the sample size (60-80 shots + sighters for an NMC) just shot was very good. Again, not criticising, just points to ponder......

Larry Gibson

Thank you

Yes, the point of my post was to find out if in fact my expectations are too high for this platform.

I've been working on my form with this rifle, it does have more recoil than a 17lb 308, a hell of a lot more in fact, and position and form are more important the bigger the recoil. It makes a difference going from 155s to 185s at 1000 yards, so I know that is a variable. I've spent a fair amount of time with this rifle now and I'll never call my hits but I can stay with it and I don't think I'm pulling it off. As a wrote above I've put a couple of hundred rounds through it and it consistently throws 2 out of 5. I can get 3 shots in a 2MOA group then bang, one just lands 3 inches from the point of aim, or I get the one flyer then 3 decent ones, but I've yet to see this shot a 5 shot group that I could believe in.

I am more than familiar with the exaggerated accuracy claims. I hear a lot, I see few clean targets to prove it. (and I know those are only 3 shot groups I posted, those were from an OCW ladder) That is why I asked. If this rifle from the factory is not going to give better than 2 MOA then I may need to consider my options to make it better or change rifles. Because I shoot comps I also understand people just out practicing tend to forget the misses, but when someone is scoring 20 consecutive shots at 1000 yards you find that you remember them more. That 8 at the end of a run of Xs and 10s in the second string will haunt you all afternoon.

Yea, 5" at 200 is still inside of the critical hit zone on a white tail, but it doesn't instill any confidence.

Maybe I'm pushing to much MV. I've been trying to get 2000-2100 from jacketed bullets, and that's well below maximums, and 1600 from the 405 cast.

Turn the case on the ID blade of the calipers with a scraping fit.

para45lda Calipers?

Anyone else want to take this?

Wes

Sure, you were wanting dividers and a mic, or an inside mic? The original question, which was for a data point (with no reason given for asking) said with calipers. I still don't know what it was supposed to tell me?

[Chill Wills]

I am still unclear as to the first question that went through my mind at the first post. What do you expect to shoot with this rifle? As in Why did you buy it?

So far I know you did not get it to shoot Creedmoor matches.

Respectfully, what is the intent of the rifle?

Generally, the 45-70 class singleshot rifle that CAN claim MOA,, these rifles are barreled 12lbs and up and do not exceed 1400fps MAX and less in most cases.

I am sure there are exceptions, so please let's not digress. So, again, why the rifle?

With great respect,

[NSB]

FWIW: I spent a lifetime working in statistical quality control/engineering. The term "capable" is often misused. A gun that can shoot five shots into an inch is "capable" of shooting 1MOA. However, a word that doesn't appear here is "performance". Process capability and process performance are very related but one is a brief snap-shot of what a process (gun's accuracy) can do vs. performance (all the factors that make a gun less accurate over time (more shots)...shooter, rest, variations in components, wind, etc). A gun's accuracy doesn't need to be measured over a long shot string to determine how accurate it is. What happens is that everything besides the gun has variation. Reducing variation improves process performance. That's why the people who reduce/eliminate all the variation shoot the best groups.

[Larry Gibson]

XTR

Sounds like you've a good handle on what you want. If you want the rifle for hunting I suggest a change in bench positions (assuming you've the gun layed on the bags in usual bench style. The flyers indicate there may be a problem with the way the 2 piece stock is recoiling, especially as the forend is secured to the barrel. Suggest you use a "high" bench rest position sitting up straight, holding the forarm in the off hand with the off hand laying on top of the bag. Both elbows on the bench and the butt pulled into the shoulder pocket as when firing with out a rest.

Try that and see if it doesn't eliminate the flyers. If so then the problem is just the forend connected to the barrel. If not then there is a problem else where, perhaps the muzzle crown?

I've found 300 gr Sierra FP over 4759 or 5744 at 1800 - 1900 fps to be particularly accurate in numerous 45-70 rifles.

Larry Gibson

[XTR]

Respectfully, what is the intent of the rifle?

Generally, the 45-70 class singleshot rifle that CAN claim MOA,, these rifles are barreled 12lbs and up and do not exceed 1400fps MAX and less in most cases.

I am sure there are exceptions, so please let's not digress. So, again, why the rifle?

With great respect,

I thought I wrote this part somewhere.

This is a hunting rifle.


I searched pretty long till I found one with a 24" barrel instead of a 28 or longer (but didn't want one of those silly trapper tings). I live in TN and most of my hunting is over fields of 250 yards or less. If I'm hunting where I may shoot further I'll take a bolt gun. There is a whole soap opera of a story on my scope mounting problems on this rifle, in the end I've got it all worked out and it's sporting a Swaro Z3 with a BRX reticle. (I am a huge fan of reticles that let me do accurate holdovers) That reticle will give me accurate holds out to further than I'm willing to shoot this rifle.

I like big bores, and I love the look of the highwall, in fact my next hunting purchase (after I re-barrel one of my 308s into a 7-08 this spring/summer) will probably be either a 30-06 or a 7mmRm in an 1885. No special desire for either, it will really be a what I can find when I start looking, I've seen both.

I'd love to shoot Creedmore stuff, but I can only do one discipline at a time. Right now I'm shooting F-TR and thinking about a few service rifle matches with an AR-15 just for practice. Maybe in a few years I'll give it a whirl. I'm a member at ORSA in Oak Ridge, so I have access to and use the 1000 yard range pretty regularly. I do want to put on a tang sight and try throwing the big pills out there, but that's all something to do later and probably with another rifle. For now this is meant to be a deer slayer. Yes, a 5 inch group at 200 will kill a deer, but at 250 you are getting into the grey areas. I said it above, I'm a little OCD about the things I do. I take them to their sometimes unreasonable extremes, so for me 5" at 200 yards is worrisome. I shot 4 bullets, 3 kinds of brass and close to 200 rounds through the 308 I hunt with until I was satisfied with it for hunting, but I found a combo that gave me consistent .5 to .75 groups. The 1 to 1.5 I started with just wasn't doing it for me. (That's the one I'm re-barreling into a 7-08, here I go again)