45-70 - fillers?

[Guy La Pourque]

Hi guys - new here, one of my favourite bloggers said you run a fine saloon here and I have to agree!

I am about to make my mistake and would appreciate you help in doing so - I am looking at the 1885 Highwall in 45-70 (30" barrel, octagonal barrel, Uberti) for my first gun (I have done the modern cartridges with the Ruger No. 1 and love them).

I have heard two stories about using fillers in the 45-70. Some guys say they are completely safe, others say you are going to blow yourself up and leave nothing but a string of meat with some organs attatched to it in a smoking crater!

What are you old school single shot guys using?

[Longwood]

Hi guys - new here, one of my favourite bloggers said you run a fine saloon here and I have to agree!

I am about to make my mistake and would appreciate you help in doing so - I am looking at the 1885 Highwall in 45-70 (30" barrel, octagonal barrel, Uberti) for my first gun (I have done the modern cartridges with the Ruger No. 1 and love them).

I have heard two stories about using fillers in the 45-70. Some guys say they are completely safe, others say you are going to blow yourself up and leave nothing but a string of meat with some organs attatched to it in a smoking crater!

What are you old school single shot guys using?

You are going to love that rifle.
I bought one last year because Cimmarron was out of stock on the Sharps I wanted.
So glad, very pretty rifle that is a hoot to shoot.
Hey, that rymes.
I have tried several fillers when I am using some powders and the only craters I see are "Down Range".
A photo is in my album.

[elk hunter]

Guy,

Welcome aboard.

There is a lot of controversy about using fillers and everyone seems to have an opinion. In my experience fillers aren't needed in 45-70 loads. I've not needed them to get reliable ignition nor accuracy. I use them primarily in larger cases when I can't get reliable ignition.

Enjoy your new rifle.

[Baja_Traveler]

I only use a filler in my 45-70 for light blackpowder loads where the column absolutely has to be compressed.
Unless the smokeless powder you are using has a reputation for being position sensitive, I wouldn't worry about it. Lots of guys on the silhouette range are shooting their guide guns without filler here where I'm at...

[Larry Gibson]

With the milder loads of 2400 and slower burning powders I use a filler for more unifrom ignition and usually better accruacy. All powders in the 2400, 4227, 4759, 5744 and 4198 range can benifit with a 1 - 1 1/4 gr dacron filler with bullets of 300 - 450 gr at trapdoor level loads.

Its only when you get those powders burning at a sufficient psi with heavier loads or heavier bullets then the filler isn't needed. The medium burners from RL7 - Varget at the low end loads also benifit from the dacron filler.

Not opinion but fact based on measuring the psi and time/pressure curves of such loads.

Larry Gibson

[405]

I have heard two stories about using fillers in the 45-70. Some guys say they are completely safe, others say you are going to blow yourself up and leave nothing but a string of meat with some organs attatched to it in a smoking crater!

What are you old school single shot guys using?

Well, there is a TON of material on this- in the archives, including some pressure data. If you understand the difference between blackpowder loads with wads and smokeless loads with filler... you won't blow your gun up. Unless of course you load an overcharge of the wrong powder, but then that's not an issue of using a filler or not using a filler.

[August]

Actually, the two kinds of guys are ones who've used fillers and never had a problem, and guys who've used fillers and have had a detonation problem.

After ruining a beautiful Hi Wall by ringing the chamber, I became a member of the second group.

As was said above, there really is no advantage when using higher density powders like 4759 and 5744.

Using fillers has worked without a problem for lots of guys. Wish I was one of 'em. I'd like that rifle back.

[littlejack]

Guy:
If you use black powder in it, you will not NEED any filler, and you will have more fun shootin
it. Of course, thats just my opinion.
I have that same rifle. I shoot 70 grains of Goex FF and a 457125 boolit, that drops at 522
grains. I have one target that I shot last year that has 5 holes in one at 100 yards, that can
be covered with a nickle.
Don't tell me charcoal will not shoot. It's fun, it's easy, and it is NOT hard to clean up after.
Jack

[405]

Actually, the two kinds of guys are ones who've used fillers and never had a problem, and guys who've used fillers and have had a detonation problem.

Actually you left out by far the largest "with a problem" group- the guys who have not used fillers and blown up guns.

[Quigley284]

Another vote for black, just too much and just about impossible to get in any trouble. Make sure you have no extra air space by giving a little bit of compression, seat one of the heavier lyman bullets and let the fun begin. Simple to cleanup. Mike

[nanuk]

Actually you left out by far the largest "with a problem" group- the guys who have not used fillers and blown up guns.

then there is the other group, who stick to the ODG's way of using a card wad seated DOWN on the powder, leaving an airspace between the wad and boolit.

That can and often will ring a chamber. I wonder if August used a card wad?

and detonation is far different from ringing a chamber.

Luckily, I have never experienced either.

and I am not convinced a ball of dacron/polyester CAN ring a chamber. it is just too porous.

[Guy La Pourque]

Can I ask you guys about the gun itself? Can these rifles be conventionally scoped? Although years of cheap wine and rotgut has kept my body mostly well preserved...my eyes are getting old...

Also I am new to the cast boolit...and black powder cartridge. I have never paper patched a boolit, or lubed or sized one. Have any of you written some scholarly articles here on getting started?

[oldred]

Something to consider, thousands and thousands and thousands of 45/70 rounds are loaded and shot every year and a big portion of these are light smokeless loads. There does not seem to be a rash of problems from this practice and even the factory BP equivalent smokeless loads have a lot of air space and no fillers. I suppose fillers can be beneficial depending on the powder but in most cases they are not required however a card wad over the powder with an air space between it and the bullet is potential trouble. If a full case of powder is preferred BP is not necessary to accomplish this as there are several good smokeless powders that will fill the case nicely even up to a compressed load in some loads, Varget and H4895 are two that I use, and with these there would be no room for a filler much less needing one. Of the many thousands of 45/70 rounds loaded each year only a very tiny percentage of them are loaded with BP.

[littlejack]

About the scope.
Yes sir. I have a 6x Malcome 3/4" tube mounted on mine. My eyes are aged also. It is clear and the hairs are crisp. Period correct. Looks great.
Thats how I shot that tight of a group. LOL
Jack

[bigted]

have a ball with your new rifle...its gonna be tons o fun! try bp in it sometime and also another full case powder is trailboss...meassure to where the base of your bullet will be when seated all the way and fill your case to this mark. this will be your top amount of trail boss...take a 7 percent less for a starting amount for the trailboss....then i empty it back into the pan of my scales so i have the grainage to write down as my load in my shooting journal.

also i can attest to the looks of a hiwall with the long malcolm style scope. they are period correct and work very well....also welcome to a very friendly and informative forum

[Chill Wills]

take a 7 percent less for a starting amount for the trailboss[/COLOR]....then i empty it back into the pan of my scales so i have the grainage to write down as my load in my shooting journal.

Ted, I think you might have meant to say the starting load of Trail Boss is 70% of a 100% density load?????? Fill the case to the base of the bullet and put it in the scale pan. Then use 70% of that amount as a starting load. So IMR claims anyway. I am just now trying it out in a 38-55 so I have been reading and learning this too.
The Trail Boss is a good suggestion. Sounds no louder than a Barking Spider in my 38-55.

[oldred]

Have you guys looked at the pressures vs velocity of Trail Boss? Not sure what the appeal of this stuff is but when I checked into it I was a bit surprised at how it compares to some other powders.

Just compare a few Trapdoor loads from the Hodgon data,

405 grain LFP -Trail Boss Max load of 13.0 gr at only 1007 FPS at 25,600 CUP

405 grain LFP - IMR 3031 Max load of 48.5 gr at 1706 FPS at 21,100 CUP

That's 700 FPS more velocity at 4,500 cup LESS pressure with 3031 vs Trail boss!

The minimum 3031 load with that same bullet is 1597 FPS at 17,300 CUP vs the Trail Boss minimum load at only 971 FPS but 24,500 CUP.

The minimum 3031 load vs the minimum Trail boss load with a 405 grain bullet is 626 FPS more velocity with 7,200 cup LESS pressure!


Ok how about BP velocities?

405 grain LFP with a load of 27.0 gr of H4198 at 1251 FPS and only 14,200 CUP vs the Trail boss 13 grain load at 1007 FPS and 25,600 cup!

27 grains H4198 pushes that 405 grain bullet to only 244 FPS higher velocity but at 11,400 cup LESS pressure!

Several other powders show similar extremes and with heavier bullets it gets even worse,

Starting load for Trail Boss and a 485 grain cast bullet is 8 gr for only 699 FPS at 17,100 cup. Oddly enough the Max load with the 485 grain bullet is 10 grains of Trail Boss for 23,300 cup and a blistering 804 FPS velocity!


Maybe I am missing something but the performance of Trail Boss in these big cases looks quite poor to me.

[405]

oldred,
You are absolutely right about the best use for Trailboss. Unfortunately I think many completely miss the point about its best application and burn rate. Instead, they simply assume that because it is so bulky it is somehow forgiving and that it is a good choice for the longer rifle cases or those with less than max expansion ratios. In fact it is a very fast powder- that's why the lower vels at higher pressures within the safe operating ranges of most rifles. It's really no different than other fast pistol powders like Bullseye, Clays, 231 and Titegroup. Trailboss' best use is for low-modest velocity cast loads (including CAS type loads) in high expansion ratio, short cases like many of the pistol cases. It has the "safety" factor built into it because of its bulky nature which helps prevent double charges. I like it in the very high expansion ratio pistol cartridges because it is fairly clean burning, there's less chance for double charge and it measures so accurately thru my measure. Fairly bulky powders like 5744 are far superior for low-modest, blackpowder-like velocity cast loads in longer rifle cases including the 45-70. For a step up in 45-70 rifles where the goal is a little more velocity within safe pressure levels- powders like Rel7, 3031 and 4198 are the powders for that job.

[Chill Wills]

Old Red & 405, I really agree with you about the trail boss. The book value pressure numbers in my 38-55 are 20,000psi for 6gr and then 25,000psi at 8gr. And 8grains almost fills the case and gives 900 fps.
I am happy with the speed 900fps but not very happy to subject the old rifle to so much pressure.
I think your comparisons are right on the money.

Trail Boss's high pressure might not be a good trade off, I am not sure powders like unique are much better.

[bigted]

very cool...just learned another thing and i thankyou for that. the trailboss works so well in my vaquero 45 and i have a big bunch on hand that i decided to burn it in my 458 and 45-120 without checking the preassure that it developes. thanks for the heads up and the printouts i got off my stupid computer were blurry and cutoff for the preassure reading for the 45-120 so i just assumed...[yea i know] it would be safe in it. ill stop promoting the stuff in rifle cartridges...again thanks for the education.