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Thread: Bottom Pour or Ladle Cast?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    Bottom Pour or Ladle Cast?

    so i'm going to start ordering all of my supplies.
    i have an MP 454-200 cramer on the way.

    i need to decide wether to ladle cast or bottom pour.

    i don't have a huge budget to play with so my options are limited. Should i go with the star sizer and lee bottom pour? or should i just buy the lyman casting kit with the ladle furnace and lube sizer?

    looking around, and discussing this with some guys in the chat room i've read that some people just use a big cast-iron pot and ladle cast over their turkey fryer burner. that would free up some money to spend on other tools like a heater

    there are so many options.

    can you point out some pros and cons for me?

    in a good year when i have time i shoot about 5K bullets from my .45 and varying amounts from other guns. i'm sure given the lower costs of casting i would shoot a lot more! i'm sure that weighs in to the tool choice, though i'm still shooting a LOT less than the rest of you

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Reload3006's Avatar
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    Ok I am a known Lee hater but honestly your starting out with one of the best molds on the planet. you obviously dont mind spending money on quality tools. So the cheapest way into it all would be a wood fire a cast iron pot and a ladle. But you pay for convenience. A lot of people like to ladle dip. I am not one of those. If I were you (easy to say because this is what I have done) Buy a LEE 10 or 20lb pot bottom pour lots more convenient. then later (unless you have the money now) Upgrade to a RCBS or other quality bottom pour pot.
    My opinion and its worth all of what It cost you to read it.

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold Exclr8's Avatar
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    I use a lee pot and cast with an hg 118 mold. So i only have ~ about $150 in those to . Work great for me.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    Since 81 i`ve used bottom pour,lyman,saeco,rcbs,lee.The lee bottom pour are a real pain.The light bulb came on summer of 2010 an am a ladle caster for now.The lee ladle pot would be a good start to casting

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Only you can decide your needs. Might be best to try to find someone in your area to let you cast a little. Hands on would give you a much better idea on what you want or need to start out. If you don't have a big budget I wouldn't start out with a Star sizer. They are a bit pricey. I'm sure they are worth every penny but with a small budget your money may be best spent on other things you need. You could try the cast iron pot and ladle over a coleman stove or some other heat source and it will give you an idea where you are headed. Allot of people including myself started out that way.
    Aim small, miss small!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


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    i should say that i have an OK budget for casting but i'll have to skimp on something to get myself started out.

    i don't want to size with a lee die and tumble or pan lube, i would prefer to have a lube sizer.
    i know the mold is very important, and too damn sexy not to buy the MP 200 cramer

    i figured the heat source, could be something that i could cut back on. it's just a safe and controllable way to melt lead, i've seen guys do it with coleman stoves, turkey fryers, electric hot plates, etc.

    i figured i could use one of those methods without sacrificing quality, the way i would with a cheap inconsistent mold, or limiting me other ways like working with a lee sizer, and having to tumble lube (limit performance some) or pan lube (seems very slow for a high volume pistol boolit)

    i wouldn't mind spending a little more on a nicer furnace, but there seems to be a mid range gap in the market from what i've seen, you go from lee furnaces under $75 to the RCBS and LYMAN from $260 to $400

    am i making sense? thanks for the help guys. i can't wait to start casting

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    5K boolits, that is a lot of casting with a ladle. I'm a ladle guy, no bottom pour, but I'm retired and time is cheap. If you have a couple of 6 bangers and a bottom pour you can really knock out the boolits. If all you have is 1 or 2 2 bangers the ladle will go fast as you can. Just takes a bit more time. Lets see, 2 boolits a pour, 5K boolits, 30% rejects, thats 6.5K boolits that is 3.25K pours. That is a lot. Get 2 or 3 6 bangers and a bottom pour! I cast mostly for ML and that is a rate of fire of only 20-30 rounds a day at the range. Slow casting is ok a I usually only do about 1 to 1.5K boolits a year. (I share a lot) All my RBs are single but my sabot caster is a 4 holer. Hope this helped. 10 ga
    10 gauge: as per Robert Ruark, "use enough gun"

    MOLON LABE

    "I have a list, and am prepared for widespread civil disorder!" 10 ga

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

    Reload3006's Avatar
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    Yes you are making perfect sense. If I were you I would buy a lee bottom pour. trust me its a lot easier to learn to pour with one. hawk Evil bay for a used lyman 45 or 450 they are pretty good presses. If your worried about heat for the lube use an aluminum sheetmetal plate under your sizer and buy a cheap 10 dollar cloathes iron for a heat source. I am betting you can get a Lee 10lber and a used lubesizer for under 150. and then you pretty much have all you really need. other things like thermometers and such are nice but not necessary. if you hawk Evil bay and other auction sites you will be able to get some pretty nice gear at a reasonable price just dont get hung up in the bidding wars let the idiots do that bid the max you are willing to pay and forget about it until you find out you got it eventually you will get it all at a reasonable price. I have a new lyman 4500 I do not recommend them. they definately are not worth the money they are asking for them Star is IMO the best but very pricey for starters. But the down side is once you spring for a system and start buying sizing dies your kind of in a pickle and a no change situation. SO Buy a used rcbs or lyman 450 you will be happy with them.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    forgot to mention, it's a 4 cavity mold!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master


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    ok so this is what i think i'm going to purchase, and what i think i could convince the wife to go along with

    MP Mold (already have)
    Star Lube sizer with heater
    lathe smith size die
    lube (white label)
    lee pro 420 (should i go with 110 or 220? i have both available)
    digital NOE thermometer

    i have a turkey fryer (though not super high heat i think it throws about 60K BTU should be ok for smelting, if not i'll step it up)
    i have a big pot (propane tank bottom) for smelting the lead

    i'll pick pick up the rest, like shavings, WW clip skimming spoon etc

    i'm at $687 without shipping included from the various companies.

    will that do the trick? thanks again

  11. #11
    Le Loup Solitaire
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    Ladle and Bottom pour

    Your mold is top shelf stuff. You can crank out a lot of bullets with a four banger. I have turned out good numbers with all of mine and an RCBS Pro melt without trying to speed cast. Ladle casting is slower but the quality is also top notch...and it is the quality that counts either way. The ultimate sizer is a Star, but it is expensive. Below that are RCBS, Lyman and Saeco. All work. I have 2 Saecos and they work very well for me. A cast iron pot for ladle casting (10-20 pounds) is ok for getting started, but you don't need a huge arrangement to make things work well. For working with a 4 cav mold I think it would be easier for you to get a good bottom pour pot; it will last a long time and give good service without having to fiddle around with it. In the long run, any $$$ that you spend will be paid back many times over in savings. Go for quality stuff (like your mold) that will work well and give you good results not to mention the pleasure of success. The more that you read, ask questions and gather information and (not necessarily believe what is written on the box) make sound decisions and empower yourself with knowledge gained from the experience of others, the more likely you will succeed in this hobby. LLS

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I'd go with the 110v. It's allot more versitile and does the job fine.
    Aim small, miss small!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    My opinion: For smaller bullets (<350 grs) a bottom pour is the fastest and least tiring way to feed a four banger.

    For larger bullets, a bottom pour pot will frustrate the living daylights out of you as most won't have enough flow rate to fill out the mold properly. Can you do it? Sure, but it gets harder and harder to fill from a bottom pour the bigger your bullets are.

    As another poster noted, my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

    Either way, buy 110V. None of the consumer grade melting pots consume enough energy that a normal 110V branch circuit can't handle it. It will also be easier when you upgrade to a PID temperature controller!

  14. #14
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    There are a lot of people who are unhappy with Lee pots.

    There are some people who are unhappy with Lyman pots.

    There is no one who is unhappy with RCBS pots or Magma pots.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    well i started out with the little potbelly stove with the home made pot that fit in the top opening. i used that set up with a ladel for 2 years casting bullets for my .357. then i got enough money to buy a small layman bottom pour pot. i will never go back to dipping bullets. unless in a shtf situation where i have no choice.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I have used Lyman, SAECO and Lee pots and they work fine. I used to grumble about the Lee constantly dripping. The Lyman and SAECO pots broke and parts were not available for them. The Lee broke and parts were. I bought the solid liner from Lee and have not turned back. I plugged the spout on the Lee 10# and use it to preheat lead when I pour big boolits.
    Old enough to know better, young enough to do it anyway!

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  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy letsmeltlead2693's Avatar
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    Hotplates and a steel pan is cheap. Use a muffin tin as an ingot mold, a dollar store cheap spoon with holes for a skimmer and a soup ladle for a ladle. Look at my avatar pic, it is a hotplate and a steel pan with the lead in it. Cheap and no fuel used either. Note, I forgot to mention, I don't ladle with this setup, I pick up the pan and pour directly into ingots.
    Last edited by letsmeltlead2693; 02-16-2012 at 10:33 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master
    Mk42gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J. Spangler View Post
    ok so this is what i think i'm going to purchase, and what i think i could convince the wife to go along with

    MP Mold (already have)
    Star Lube sizer with heater I use an RCBS Lubamatic that I bought used, but I don't do 5,000 rounds a year with it either.
    lathe smith size die
    lube (white label)
    lee pro 420 (should i go with 110 or 220? i have both available)Get the 110 volt one, if you are in North America. You can also ladle from this pot very easily.
    digital NOE thermometer

    i have a turkey fryer (though not super high heat i think it throws about 60K BTU should be ok for smelting, if not i'll step it up) 60K BTU will do nicely to smelt 100 pounds of wheel wieghts at a time, maybe more.
    i have a big pot (propane tank bottom) for smelting the lead

    i'll pick pick up the rest, like shavings, WW clip skimming spoon etc

    i'm at $687 without shipping included from the various companies.

    will that do the trick? thanks again
    I would also get either a Lyman or RCBS ladle. Once you learn the technique, you can ladle pour good boolits very quickly; it gives you another option for those days when things aren't going right.

    10 ga, If I had 30% rejects while casting I would be checking to see what is wrong. With a good mold that is warmed up, I usually get no more than 4-5% rejects per casting session.

    The last time I ran the H&G 256 that I recently sold to SWANEED, I had 123 good boolits, and ONE that I closed the flow on too fast for incomplete fillout.

    Robert

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Bottom VS Ladle. Their are advantages to each.

    Bottom is faster, Ladle makes better quality boolets.

    I bottom pour my pistol boolets, and practice rifle boolets. When I am working on shooting drills using steel targets or IPSC silhouette, it is more about timing and muscle memory training than accuracy. That's all Center Mass aiming point.

    If I want to accuracy test, then I ladle pour. I am pretty ruthless on culling as well. The sacred 311284 and 311332 for target are all ladle and double culled.

    Rich

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
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    I'm with Theperfessor on ladle vs pour. I ladle the .45 and .50 caliber rifle boolits, usually pour the smaller caliber boolits (though sometimes I'll ladle a single cavity mould).

    If you watch e-Bay, you can pick up older Lyman and Saeco (same pot) bottom pour pots for reasonable money. Lubrisizers and dies too, though you seem set on the Star. As already said - don't get into the bidding wars, people get absolutely stupid and bid as much as they'd pay for a new whatever it is they can't live without.

    Other than the 11 pound capacity of my old Lyman, I've been using the pot since '68 or '69 with only one repair. I sure can't say I'm unhappy with it. I've added a used Saeco pot, now have 2 pots running when I'm doing big boolits, one heating while one is being used. Over 400 grain boolits eat a lot of lead quick. And I'm still way under the cost of a new Lyman or RCBS pot.
    Last edited by Ed in North Texas; 02-15-2012 at 10:23 AM.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check