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Thread: My Homemade Mold for an Ugly Paper Patch Bullet

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
    DoctorBill's Avatar
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    " there is no way on God's green earth I can afford a vertical mill "
    Me too !

    How about the small machines and going SLOOOOWLY.

    No big bites - patience is the word....and use Aluminum only.

    or maybe I should just break into my bank account and go BUY the darned bullet molds.

    I'm between a Chuck or a Vice.

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-09-2012 at 09:15 PM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  2. #82
    Longwood
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post
    " there is no way on God's green earth I can afford a vertical mill "
    Me too !

    How about the small machines and going SLOOOOWLY.

    No big bites - patience is the word....and use Aluminum only.

    or maybe I should just break into my bank account and go BUY the darned bullet molds.

    I'm between a Chuck or a Vice.

    DoctorBill
    iIf you go very slowly with a very sharp, tiny endmill, spinning very fast in a drill press, it is possible to do ROUGH machining in wood and aluminum.
    Of course, one slight grab of the endmill or a teenie misjudgement and you will break the endmill and/or tear up the part you just spent hours on.

  3. #83
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    ..............Drill presses, built AS drill presses don't have quills designed to carry side loads. In addition to that, a drill press that's worth a hoot is going to cost more then that 7" lathe. Now if you could find a good ole American made DP (I assume you mean a homeowner type DP) that was produced back in the 50 and 60's you'd probably be able to do some LIGHT milling with it. They weren't designed for it either, but they were built a heckuva lot better then a lot of the big box store Asian import junk.

    Heck, my dad has my grandfather's benchmodel Craftsman DP from the lathe '50's and it's about as stout as one of those column type mill drills! You can drill in the lathe to ya know? Generally the work spins and the drill bit is stationary. Don't understand the resistance to getting a lathe. They don't call it the "King of the Machineshop" for 'nuttin ya know? Get the lathe, and some months down the road pick up a milling attachment for it.

    ...............Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

    Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.

    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."

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  4. #84
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    Lathes are Always on the list......

    one of these days.....

    one of these days.....

  5. #85
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have heard it said that the lathe is the only tool in the shop that can rebuild itself. I cant figure out where they come off with that statement but somebody can do it I guess. I bought the lathe first because it is absolutly indispensable for certain jobs, but a milling machine with a shaping attachment and a rotary table cant be beat for versatility. I realy believe I could make almost anything with that setup.
    The downside to the cheap lathes is that you have to do some "leementing" if you will pardon the borrowed expression. I had to help a buddy rework the gibbs and such right off the bat. Of course, once we were done he had a very useful little machine.
    I would say to anybody thinking about it, that you should get the biggest and best machine that you can afford. By no means should you go buying something as monstrous as what I did, but if you can get something big enough to get a barrel between centers, you've got it made!
    A little tip, you should go to the local scrap/junk yard to look for some of these machines. You wouldn't believe what people throw away! Right now in a local junk yard I know that they have some old belt driven lathes that somebody dropped off and sold as scrap! You can pick up motors for cheap, you can get replacement belts and get it going. They have the equipment to load it in your tailor, and you can get a wrecker to offload it at the house. voila!
    And even in its old and well used state, I would take an old American made machine over a new Chinese one any old day of the week.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  6. #86
    Longwood
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    Light milling with a drill press

    Here is an example of "Light" milling that I did on a drill press.
    the photo is lousy but you may be able to get an idea of how sloppy it is.
    Note the red stuff.
    That is how I took out the loosie goosie that I ended up with.
    It is red Loctite, that I kept from sticking to the gun with a release agent.
    I wished I had not begun it when I kept breaking new end mills.
    Last edited by Longwood; 03-26-2012 at 12:26 AM.

  7. #87
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Okay, found some photos. They didn't shrink real well but should be decent enough to see what's what. I guess I need photo lessons for Cast Boolits!

    - 12 ga. slug mould is a solid bronze mould with ejector pin to make HP and FP slugs
    - 12 ga. slugs are well... 12 ga. slugs made in that mould
    - 12 ga. top view is showing sprue plate open with HP pin in the mould
    - D bit and nose form is a .30 cal mould I made with full diameter sliding nose form. I made the D bit to boolit shape but decided to use the sliding nose form. The D bit was also used to make the nose form. The boolits have been "knurled" after to put annular rings on them for tumble lubing (shown are .30 cal on the right and .44 from another mould on the left).
    - push out mould is one of my pushout moulds. In this case the mould is simply 3/4" round bar (shown in D bit photo) dropped in and adjusted with the threaded fitting in the bottom. Makes for easy mould changes and less work. One "mould holder" can take quick change moulds.
    - Top view shows the nose form slid up in the .30 cal mould in the mould holder

    As mentioned, my work is not near as classy as Buckshot's. He does very nice work. These moulds do work well though and are good for making PP boolits but I also knurl and shoot groove diameter boolits with good success too.

    The D bit is effectively half a boolit cut lengthwise to exactly the middle. It is a 0 rake cutting tool. They will cut steel quite well at low speed and work very well on brass or bronze. I think the D bit shown was made from an old grade 8 head bolt from my wife's Mazda van (best use that vehicle ever gave us!) ~ annealed, formed then heat treated. Turned on a lathe but filed to the middle, heat treated then the flat honed on a diamond sharpener.

    I hope that helps explain a bit.

    Longbow
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 12 ga. slug mould.jpg   12 ga. slugs.jpg   12 ga. top view.jpg   D bit & nose form.jpg   push out mould.jpg  

    top view.jpg  

  8. #88
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Very nice work Longbow, now that I've got to try!
    Have you ever shot a deer (or other similar sized animal) with that monstrous slug?
    Are you saying that you knurl smooth sided boolits, tumble lube, and shoot them?
    How fast, and how accurate?
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  9. #89
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Thanks Goodsteel but I have to say that there are many better machinists on this site than me (look at Buckshot's work!). I have a beat up old Craftsman (Atlas lathe with a 3 1/2" swing and 18" centers. It needs rebuilding and so do I! For now it does the job though if I am careful about backlash.

    The boolits these moulds make are very good and of course can be custom sizes to suit any gun especially when paper patched.

    I made a 20 ga. hollowbase wadcutter mould (basically a flat nosed Foster slug) about 30 years ago and thought I was pretty smart then saw that Ideal had been making their "Cylindrical Molds" about 100 years ago. Anyway, it worked pretty well. That one was made on a drill press.

    Next one was after I got my lathe about 20 years ago and was for my .44 Marlin because at the time I could not find a mould to suit the 0.4315" groove. I could have lapped out a standard mould but decided to make a push out mould. It was smooth sided and I used a grease cookie under the boolit with good accuracy and no leading.

    The knurling was an afterthought more recently to try out LLA and it seems to work fine in my .303 for light to moderate loads. I haven't chronographed but they should be in the 1400 to 1600 FPS range. Using up to about 13 gr. Unique under a 200 gr. boolit has given good results. If loaded with heavier charges of slower powder I use COW filler so leading isn't an issue. These are PB boolits after all so will have about the same or maybe lower pressure/velocity limits than a GG PB boolit. I do plan to make a PB gas check maker though to see how that goes.

    My "knurler" is a home made affair sort of like the Corbin knurler but I used annular rings to produce "microgrooves" for tumble lubing. Seems to work well but the boolits grow about 0.002" to 0.003" when knurled so the mould has to be made accordingly.

    I made a smooth sided .30 cal. for PP in my .308 using an N reamer which makes a 0.302" hole and the boolit casts at 0.301" which is perfect for patching in 0.308" barrel but small for a .303. I was getting poor PP accuracy in the .303 even patched to groove diameter so I knurled some to 0.304" then patched and shot. Accuracy was much better. I haven't done much PP'ing for the .303 though.

    As for accuracy, I would have to sit down and do side by side comparison with GG boolits but the first good shooting boolit from my Marlin was one of these smooth sided boolits (not paper patched) and it shot quite well. Casual shooting with iron sights gave me about 4" at 100 yards. That was with 265 gr. smooth boolit over grease cookie. The same boolit gave 10" at 200 yards which may not sound like much but that was casual shooting with iron sights, heavy trigger and old eyes so I don't think it is too bad. These were being loaded to typical "J" bullet velocities over H110 and IMR4227.

    I made a PP mould for my .44 and cast up some 300 gr. Accuracy at 50 yards was good at under 2" but at 100 yards they were sideways through the paper. It seems they would start to lose stability at about 75 yards then were "gone". Anything up to about 270 grs. worked well so I have keppt the weight down in my 1:38" twist Marlin. One of the benefits of adjustable weight moulds!

    Also, in the .303 these smooth boolits produced better accuracy than a Lyman 314299 that cast at about 0.313" in my 0.314" groove Lee Enfield. A smooth sided boolit of 0.315" shot considerably better with same loads.

    I am not much of a hunter at least for 4 legged critters, I do like bird hunting though. I haven't shot anything living with any of these boolits or the shotgun slug.

    The slug mould was actually made as a prototype for a friend who was developing a slug/wad combo to be marketed commercially for rifled shotgun so I won't go into detail. He is currently going another route for sabot slug but the design is his anyway.

    He reported good penetration in tests and the deep HP tended to break into 3 or 4 large pieces producing devastating wound channel. It weighs about 630 grs.

    I have made several different types of slug moulds including hollow base, finned and ribbed. I am using a solid version with attached wad currently as my "development" slug. Still in testing when I get time but so far pretty good.

    One significant benefit to these solid body moulds is that the boolits produced are round with no seam of possibility of offset blocks. They are also much easier to make for the tool challenged than split blocks.

    Doctorbill is on the right track and so far so good. With the tools he has he is doing nice work and those boolits if correct size should shoot fine. The mould can be easily lapped to smooth any machine marks and also to work them to final diameter. I also make sure there is a veeeeeery slight taper of maybe 0.0005" from nose to base for easy ejection.

    They can be made on small lathes that don't cost a bunch and very minimal tooling is required. Even skill level required is not high. If you can turn and bore, you can make one of these moulds.

    Anyway, this is becoming a major thread hijack now so I better quit rambling.

    Longbow

  10. #90
    Boolit Master
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    Changing Threads - Making a D-Bit Mold (Maybe)

    I have started a new Thread named,

    My First Attempt at a "D-Bit" Bullet Mold
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...56&postcount=1

    BTW, longbow - Those are nice pictures of the IDEAL Mold !

    Thank you !

    I am sure that those pictures will inspire (?) others to make their own versions.

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-11-2012 at 08:14 PM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  11. #91
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Yeah, sorry for the hijack Doc, I didn't mean to contribute, just got swept away in conversation.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master
    DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Oh, Lord, don't worry about that ! CONTRIBUTE to education !

    All these posts have been filled with......information !

    I have learned a lot and just thought that it would be better to dissect some of
    these various ideas into separate threads - just for the sake of "KISS".

    There is a lot to learn and from the responses to this thread, a whole lot
    of the unwashed, amateur, garage and basement "machinists" who want to
    try making molds, but who are intimidated by the whole idea - liked it.

    I would hope that this thread is a teaching tool....after all I teach Chemistry at
    the local Community College and my creed is "Teach what you have learned
    to others - or it gets lost forever. i.e. - wasted bandwidth."

    Often, some folks resent people trying to teach them something...but they are
    the losers - in the end.

    Those who don't teach others what they have learned are wasting their education.

    "Those who can't do - teach" is, of course, absurd on the face of it.....

    DoctorBill

    PS - goodsteel - "The only thing worse than living in a country that does not believe
    in individual gun ownership, is being a law-abiding citizen in that country
    "

    You mean, like in England ? Where it is ILLEGAL to defend yourself or your property ?
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-11-2012 at 08:13 PM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  13. #93
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    DrBill,
    Just stumbled on to this thread. Suggest you find Bixby Machine in your town. On Fancher north of Broadway I believe. They carry a lot of what you are interested in. Usually have good information to share. Got lots of used equipment of all sorts out back. They've got a website too. I'd check them out before you buy any equipment. So far they've beat Grizzly and Enco every time I've checked.
    Richard
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  14. #94
    Boolit Master
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    I am not a machinist, don't even personally know one anymore but have always found it interesting.
    Some time back I bought a lathe at a farm auction for 125.00. It an 1894 Porter machine works that has been converted from steam to a small electric moter via a model A transmission.
    I already had a copy of practical machine work that I'd read many times. So off I run to Grizzly to buy me a handful of bits and started playing with it. It's about .030 runout so I built me a steady rest for it and started practicing my threading. Not ready to try a real barrel yet but I'm getting closer. About as fun a toy I ever bought for 125.00
    Some people live and learn but I mostly just live

  15. #95
    Longwood
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    I very much enjoy making stuff with my cheapie Chinese lathe/mill combo.
    Since I have joined this site, I have gotten numerous idea's here and made many items that would have cost a lot of money. I have not added it all up but it is into the hundreds of dollars.

    Nowdays, just about anything enjoyable costs several bucks an hour so it did not take long for my machine to pay for itself in enjoyment alone.
    It makes as much sense to me to have a machine that I can enjoy and make cheap parts on when the weather is not so good as a gun that I seldom shoot.
    Plus,,,, I can shoot more,,,, cheaper than before.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master
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    Thread on D-Bit Bullet Mold moved to Special Projects.

    I had a Thread here called,

    "My First Attempt at a "D-Bit" Bullet Mold"
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=143164

    It was moved over to the SPECIAL PROJECTS section because of some complainers.

    Just FYI, in case you are interested.

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 03-29-2012 at 11:21 AM.
    I would just like to ask -
    WHOM does our Current Government represent, anyway ? !


    It sure as Heck doesn't represent ME ! How about you ?
    Seems to be just a Big Mafia run by the current set of criminals in office.
    Have we EVER been this close to losing our Country ? !

  17. #97
    In Remembrance
    montana_charlie's Avatar
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    Yeah, we know.
    Those who WERE interested are still posting in it ...

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  18. #98
    Longwood
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    The lathe came through again.

    I used the lathe again yesterday to make a new taper crimping sleeve for my Hornady seater die for paper patched to .458-.459, bullets.
    The crimp die that came with it, works quite well for grease groove bullets, but not at all the paper patched ones.

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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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