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Thread: My Homemade Mold for an Ugly Paper Patch Bullet

  1. #21
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Is a "D Bit" simply a shape ground or cut to the desired configuration and
    then half of it ground off ?

    Any Internet links showing the process of making a "D Bit" ?

    If so - could I make such a thing on a Drill Press by grinding a shape into
    a tool steel rod tip, then putting it into the drill press chuck to finish off the
    shape with a file and or a diamond sharpening plate while it is rotating ?

    Afterward, grind away half of it lengthwise and then harden it with a torch ?

    I hate this being ignorant and without tools !

    Its just that tools cost an arm and a leg and I'm too old to start trying to
    be a machinist....

    DoctorBill

    BTW yous guys - Why make the mould block and handles and sprue cutter
    when you can buy a LEE Aluminum Blank Mold for $26 ($5 shipping) and then
    ream the cavity yourself ?
    http://leeprecision.com/blank-for-cu...vity-mold.html
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-01-2012 at 02:41 AM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  2. #22
    Longwood
    Guest
    Doc,
    The dark reamer was hardened tool steel. The other one was not because I thought I may have to try to make it a smaller diameter.
    The non heat treated one cut fine also.
    I made so many different grooved bullets I have not gotten around to testing many of them
    The short bullet was from the mold with the sprue plate. It is the first attempt before I learned about how to make the reamers.

    I need to do some serious wrapping and testing the paper patch bullets that I cast with them.
    I broke my right clavicle in an Ultralight aircraft "Hard Landing" on Halloween which seems to be slowly healing.
    I will have to learn to shoot left handed so I am not looking forward to it. I probably should wait for me to heal but the rifle is pretty near new to me and I really want to shoot it some more. The surgeon said he would look at me again in six months to see if he has to do surgery and put in a plate.

    Longbow, may be the guy thast told me about the reamers way back when.
    So many Mac Hinest's, and wannabee's like you and me hear, that I am not sure.

    By the way, don't be so sure your friend would be bothered making tools for you. He may actually "Dig it" a little.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Longwood - If your shoulder is touchie, why not put a foam rubber pad over it
    then a small piece of wood over the foam to distribute all the recoil over
    your entire upper body.

    I have Calcium deposits in the tendons of my shoulders and a simple shooting pad
    helps me to even be able to shoot !

    A Doctor friend told me to use a small sand bag between the stock butt and my shoulder
    to distribute the recoil.

    Something to consider...good luck to you !

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-01-2012 at 12:15 PM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  4. #24
    Longwood
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post
    Longwood - If your shoulder is touchie, why not put a foam rubber pad over it
    then a small piece of wood over the foam to distribute all the recoil over
    your entire upper body.

    I have Calcium deposits in the tendons of my shoulders and a simple shooting pad
    helps me even be able to shoot !

    A friend told me to use a small sand bag between the stock butt and my shoulder.

    Something to consider...good luck to you !

    DoctorBill
    Doctor
    I did the heat treat on the black drill after I had machined it.

    Thanks for the tips.

    I am pretty sure I will figure out a way to shoot right handed.

    Funny thing, I had just got through adding a lead weight to the stiock and had bought a nice shoulder pad to try less than a month before my miishap.

    I have an adjustable steel rest that I made many years ago that can be easily modified to absorbe the recoil and last spring, I made myself a nice maintainance rack from 3/4" X 6" Mahogany that I can also modify to shoot from

    The breaks are right up by my neck and it does not hurt. There is a good sized knot there and I can hear all sorts of popping when I move certain muscles or push on it.
    The surgeon at the VA said he wanted to wait 3 more months to see how well it is healing,,, or not.
    I have had two surgeries in the last two years and I don't really care to go through more. They did both with the probes and camera's but it still hurt like the dickens.

  5. #25
    Boolit Man Rojelio's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post
    Rojelio - What is the calibre and dimensions of your bullet ? How many grains ?

    Is the mold of Aluminum (looks like it) ?

    Absolutely beautiful !

    Just on the side - what would you charge me to make such a cutting tool in 0.440 inch x 1.1 inch ?

    I am serious ! (PM me)

    I could buy the LEE Blank Mold for $26 and have my machinist friend make the cuts.
    http://leeprecision.com/blank-for-cu...vity-mold.html

    It must be nice to be a machinist and able to make a Space Shuttle in your shop
    out of recycling store metals.....!

    Color me envious !

    DoctorBill
    Dr. Bill, sorry it took so long to get back to you. My bullets are casting at .457 (pure lead) and I will PP them to .469 (I haven't had time to try them yet) to shoot in my Mk II martini. They weigh 490 grns.

    I cut my cherry down and it now cuts .444 in a test hole. If you can use that size, I'll send it to you when I get through with it. or, I can cut another couple of thousands off each side and make it the .440 that you're wanting. That seems awfully small for PPing a 45-70 bullet.

    I'm building a Martini in 45-70 and another in 33 Win. so I will be building several more molds. I can't get enough of this hobby. It will keep me busy for a while.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master plmitch's Avatar
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    This is some great stuff you guys are doing here
    Life's hard, even harder if your stupid.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    I haven't got any photos looked out yet but here are some links to making D bits:

    http://www.homemodelenginemachinist....p?topic=5251.0
    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/51032200...ng-The-Clapper
    http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1334.0

    You can make them the shape of the boolit you want then cut the cavity that shape and add the ejector pin or just make a through hole reamed to size then make a nose form to fit which then also acts as an ejector and allows for adjustable weight.

    Ideal's version also attached.

    Longbow
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ideal Cylindrical Mould.jpg 
Views:	679 
Size:	46.4 KB 
ID:	40358  

  8. #28
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Rojelio - Thank you for your offer !

    Let me explain why I wanted a bullet that small in diameter.

    I am writing this as regards MY 45-70 Springfield Trapdoor Model 1873.

    My H&R Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 Cavalry Model 1873 reproduction rifle
    has slugged bore dimensions of 0.447 and a groove diameter of 0.461.
    It is a reproduction and thus has modern metal and modern rifling.
    Six grooves - six lands.


    I want to make a bullet that never touches the barrel bore.
    It will then be paper patched up to 0.457 - more or less.

    So yes - your 0.444 would not touch the bore - close but no cigar !

    My bullet (this Thread's subject) was made using a commercially available 7/16 inch
    Ball End Mill (0.438 final bullet size).
    I used what I could economically get my hands on - I am not rich in money.
    Just ideas.....and imagination.

    So I figured that a bullet (of a better shape than round nosed) of 0.440 to 0.445 inch
    diameter is what I want.
    It will not touch the rifling - only the paper it is patched with.

    Thus, I can shoot any alloy metal I want - including Silicon Carbide or spent Uranium slugs...!
    The wrapped on paper is essentially a different type of sabot !

    To me, that is the function of Paper Patching a bullet - it never touches the rifling.

    So, a tool of 0.440 inch diameter, more or less, with a nice ogive shape would be just right.

    For some esthetic reason I am lusting after this shaped bullet....


    but I also like


    I have no clue as to whether or not these bullets are aerodynamically any good.

    Your flat nosed bullet is also nice and I would like to try it.

    How did you determine that shape ?
    Did you grind it to a predetermined shape or just get there "by guess and by golly" ?

    Long story short - the diameter I want is because of what I wrote
    in the beginning of this post - to not touch the rifling.
    Paul Matthews said this in his book - The Paper Jacket, p 23, second
    paragraph.

    The bullet's nose shape is up for grabs.....(?)

    So...I don't know how difficult it is to make a cutting tool.

    It looks like you made the bullet shape THEN made the cutting tool FROM that.
    Am I correct ?

    Why not make a D-Bit out of some unshaped rod - THEN - grind it to a desired shape ?
    Then all you need is the starting steel rod and a grinder !
    You'd only grind a nose shape free hand - the sides would be straight.
    If you screw up, start over - the rod material is cheap !

    Am I off in never never land ?

    My machinist friend, I believe, wonders if I am not crazy when I propose my ideas.
    He is probably used to doing things in some standard way and, of course, my ideas
    don't follow the accepted way.
    I'm playing it fast and loose and without any plans or drawings....

    After all is said and done, I wonder if the bullet's nose shape matters very much in
    how it works out at the range ?

    How can a "Wad Cutter" bullet work well alongside a nice rounded ogive shaped bullet ?
    A Wad Cutter is just a flat, truncated cylinder !

    Maybe if it is cylindrical and heavy, almost anything will work !
    Just spin it up and move it along at 1200 fps !

    I am rambling now. Does the above make any sense ?

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-02-2012 at 03:08 AM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  9. #29
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Longbow - Great drawing of the Ideal Adjustable Cylindrical Mold !

    Now, if I could just figure out how that ejector works !

    I can't understand what holds it in place for each casting, but allows you to
    slide it up to eject the slug.

    What a beautiful idea, however, that you can change out the center pin
    to whatever nose shape you want PLUS vary the bullet's length !

    What more could one ask for than that !?

    It looks WAY beyond my tinker-toy ability to make.....

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-02-2012 at 07:04 PM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  10. #30
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    DrB

    how about a spring?

  11. #31
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    nanuk asked.... "how about a spring?"

    I don't understand your question....do you mean in the Ideal Mold ?

    A spring is heat sensitive and would go belly up rather quickly.
    Mine is doing that now - once the heat gets to it, it stops "Springing" !

    I've had to replace two of them already - a flaw in the design !

    That drawing is not all that clear as to what is in there at the bottom. ...
    at least to my non-engineer's eyes.



    I suspect that the mold's inner pin slides and when the bullet is poured, the pin stays down,
    due to gravity, until the metal solidifies - then one pushes the pin "up"....yes ?
    THEN - you pull it back down - with pliers - it is hot ! ?

    What is that dark area between the bottom of the mold and that round knurled
    nut on the threaded rod ?

    If anyone has one of these, some photos would help explain it to the average
    unwashed among us.

    The threading and such on the mold itself is beyond my "drill press" abilities !

    As to the "D-Bits".......

    After sleeping on this subject, I realized that the problems and outcomes depend on
    how one does the boring step.

    Lathe or Milling Machine.

    Some D-Bit comments are - you have to try the mold out to see what you get.

    Well, my unsurmountable problem w/o either a Lathe or Milling Machine is getting the
    bit centered up and back where it was if I had to continue boring later on.

    My machinist friend used a dial type thing with a small swinging arm ball-ended lever.

    Took him quite a while, but he got to the center of a cavity to enlarge it.
    (Previous Thread)

    For me, it would have to be a "One Shot" thing !

    He also used a tool with a single little adjustable sticking-out cutting tip on a
    Milling Machine. I forget it's name, but that was for boring out the straight sides.

    He told me there are many ways to get there from here....he knows them - I don't.

    This usually becomes so daunting that I just give up.

    Ignorance is expensive and very disheartening.

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-02-2012 at 08:01 PM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  12. #32
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    DrB, sorry about that, after reading your posts again, I see you have that covered.

    I didn't realize that heat would kill a spring like that...

    if the surfaces were relatively smooth, would the nose punch not be able to move on it's own by gravity?

  13. #33
    Boolit Master

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    You don't need a spring.

    Gravity is pretty dependable. I haven't drifted away yet anyway (except occasionally from reality).

    I find my nose forms drop right back down even if they are a close fit ~ they do have to be close to stay centered and I am going to say no more than 0.001" clearance. I lap mine to fit.

    As for D bits, they are a "0" rake tools with no side clearances. The idea is to turn the boolit shape to just under the diameter you want by maybe a thou then cut the form in half. It can be milled, ground or filed. I have filed several .30 cal. D bits in half and they have to be to the center or a hair more or they won't cut. After turning and filing, milling, grinding or whatever, heat treat and sharpen by rubbing th eflat surface on a good stone or diamond hone. They cut aluminum and brass easily and will cut steel as well.

    A simpler method is to just make a straight reamer, D bit style, and make a though hole in the mould then make a full diameter nose form which can be done using a form tool ground from a standard lathe tool bit.

    I have made D bits from drill rod, old high carbon steel round bar and grade 8 head bolts. As long as there is enough carbon to heat treat hard enough to hold an edge you are good to go.

    I used to use long 10 - 24 UNC screws for ejector pins but have gone to 1/4" now as it is stronger. Either way, drill and tap the nose form for the ejector pin and you are good to go. If you have bored all the way through the mould you obviously need to make a stop so the nose form doesn't drop out. The stop can be a bolt drilled to suit the ejector pin then threaded into the bottom of the mould or a plate that is screwed on to the mould, etc.

    I use a nut or "handle" on the bottom of the ejector and that keeps it from dropping out when the boolit is ejected.

    Too many words! I have to look out some photos or take new ones.

    As for the Ideal graphic of their mould, the black inside under the nose form is just empty space ~ they are showing the boolit being ejected part way (I turn my moulds upside down to eject).

    Not sure what the black is under the mould other than poor drawing ~ it should be open space.

    I hope that explanation helps some.

    Longbow

  14. #34
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    This is a great thread!
    One problem I find with venting under the sprue is the edge feathering with too much casting pressure. You guys have given me some ideas.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  15. #35
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    After these discussions, I now realize that I do not need the spring at all !



    I can remove the spring AND the hack saw spring and simply have some
    bracket to allow the pin to cycle in and out from gravity.

    That is - have one nut on the ejector.
    One to prevent it from falling out and limit it's inward motion - i.e. falling out the other end.

    Have to come up with some kind of bracket metal....



    By simply inverting the mold (after cutting off the sprue), the pin can
    push the bullet out (either strike it on the end or have some weight on the outer end).

    Much simpler as the spring is heat sensitive....

    I will put a photo here after I make the modifications. SEE Number 38 Post above.

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-05-2012 at 03:55 PM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  16. #36
    Longwood
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post

    DoctorBill
    Doc
    Look at the pins at #19.
    I drilled a small diameter hole through the blank, then a little bit bigger one a little deeper that the length of the bullet I want. Then I made pins to fit both diameters of the holes before I bored the bullet cavity.
    The large end is the end that is inside the bullet cavity.
    After boring, I reversed the mold in the lathe and relieved the pin hole some so it had enough support to hold the pin straight but there is less aluminum touching the long pin for ease of movement when things start heating up.
    They can't fall out if thread them or put a pin in like the mold in the photos has, and the end of the one with the largest end has a indentation in the big end so the bullets come out with a rounded tip.
    The long bullet is one of the bullets made with one of the round molds with no sprue plate yet.
    The bullets come out with a tiny flashing ring where the end of the pin and the bullet cavity meet. I machine it off with a tool (similar to the Lee shell champherer) that I made from brass but they do not seem to effect accuracy much.
    I make the holes a teenie bit small then using a bullet cast from it, hone to the exact size I want.

  17. #37
    Longwood
    Guest

    It's ALL Goodsteel's fault

    I Went back through my posts and see that goodsteel is the member that I got the idea from.
    He is the guy I recommend talking to.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Here is my revised 0.438 Paper Patch Round Nosed Bullet Mold.



    Hacksaw Blade Bracket - Steel Knob weight drilled and tapped.



    The Screw Clamp is some 'Doo Dad' I found in my Dad's old Nut-Bolt & Screw bottles.
    I drilled it to 1/8 inch and drilled and tapped the cross entry to make
    a screw on clamp.



    No springs to degenerate with heat. All Metal.



    Just kind of large and unwieldy - but it should work.

    It was fun making it !

    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 02-05-2012 at 03:53 PM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    Looks good!

    If you make the "head" of the ejector pin larger than the shank and drop it in from the top then add your handle, you won't need the pin retainer and bracket to keep the ejector from falling out the bottom.

    That would make it all a little smaller. Should work fine the way it is though.

    I lap my cavities to make sure they are smooooth and also to produce a very slight taper. My .303 boolits often drop out without any help as soon as the sprue is cut and mould inverted.

    I'll try to post some photos later.

    Longbow

  20. #40
    Longwood
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post

    It was fun making it !

    DoctorBill
    Excellent! It is looking mighty fine sir.

    You will NEVER cover your time making stuff like that but it sure is fun, ain't it?
    Keep at it, things will get even better.

    The list of thing I have made go on and on. I need to get back to the machining.

    Have you noticed how simple a lead hardness tester that uses a dial indicator is?

    Today, I am working on my new, home made, folding, shooting bench.Aren't you glad your dad had such foresight.
    One never knows when a "Doo Dad" will come in handy.
    My wife called it "Keeping too much junk that I do not need", so I got rid of her.

    Where did you get the ball?
    What is it made of?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check