Old Winchester - Where can I find....

[Pigwacker]

I have an old Winchester lever rifle 26" octagon , barrel, full length magazine, marked 30 WCF, Serial number 83494, for smokeless powder. Where can I find the model # for it? I think it is a Model 1894. Where can I find a front sight, either the blade or the dovetail and blade? Where can I find the elevator for the rear buckhorn sight?

While I'm at it should I shoot this rifle? If yes, PB or J bullets? I would like to cast some lead and use it on an antelope hunt this year. Any recommendations for a bullet/mold and a load?

I appreciate any thoughts or comments from someone who has been there and done that.

Chris

[runfiverun]

it's either a 94 or a 64 both basixally the same rifle but with some differences.
the 64 usually had a short mag tube and a longer bbl.,some were round some octagon and some half of both.
a rifle that has had parts stripped off needs to be looked over real good by a smith and have the headspace checked.
especially one with low serial numbers.
i'd try numrich gunparts for the sights.
if necessary sights for the rossi can be fitted as they use a larger dovetail arrangement.

[stubshaft]

IIRC - The model # was usually engraved on the flat near the rear sight or on the upper tang.

[Pigwacker]

Runfiverrun, If I understand correctly then, this is a low serial number gun?? I will have a gunsmith check the head space on it. And I'll look up Numrich and see what I can find. Thanks.

Stubshaft, I think I can't find the model number because there is a peep sight mounted on the tang. I will pull that and take a look and see what's under there. Thanks.

Chris

[Boerrancher]

The peep sight on the Tang is the reason the elevator is missing from the rear sight. I would check Gun Parts Corp. (Numrick Arms) for a front site for it. If it has the tang sight you may want to make sure you put it back on as the are so much nicer to use over the regular rifle sights.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Chill Wills]

Pigwacker- Chris

Buckinghams in Tenn still has a good supply of all things "Old Winchester"
He has a thick mountain accent and not young anymore. He can poke around and find what you need most of the time.

I hope this helps, Your rifle sounds great to an old Winchester man.

[wv109323]

Try Wisner's Inc. if you can't find parts other places.

[KirkD]

You have a Winchester Model 1894 and the serial number indicates that it was received in the Winchester warehouse in the year 1900, probably early in March of that year. The caliber is 30-30 (30 WCF is the original designation for the 30-30). For a Winchester of that vintage, the model number will not be stamped on the barrel. It will be on the upper tang.

You can use normal 30-30 ammo. If you want to use cast bullets for antelope, the RCBS 150 grain gas check mould is a good one. You can load 30 grains of IMR 3031 under that 150 grain bullet and get around 2,200 fps with it, maybe a bit faster with a 26" barrel.

Winchesterbob.com will usually have replacement sight parts.

[Dirty30]

That's a keeper you have there. I love the 173 grain gas check cast bullets, however factory loaded 150 ammo shoots great out of mine. I would suggest you try the tang sight before you give up on it. I have those on two of mine and love them. I shoot a lot better with them as well. KirkD was spot on with everything he said. IMR 3031 is the beez knees for loading for the 30-30. Enjoy your rifle, it's a gem!

[725]

+1 for 3031. I like the 311041 mold. Flat meplat for the tube mag and just dandy in that rifle.

[Pigwacker]

Boerrancher - Numrich carries the elevator for the rear sight, but I think I want to stick with just the peep sight. They didn't have any front sights. I have found a website in the past that lists a number of different front sights for the model 1894, but they are all different heights. Any idea how high the front site should be on this model rifle???? Thanks.

Chill Wills - I looked up Buckingham's and will try and give them a call this week to see what they have. Thanks.

wv109323 - Wisner's Inc. carries mostly everything else, but what I'm looking for. But does look like a useful sight if I break springs or sears or lose a screw along the way. Thanks.

[6.5 mike]

Try track of the wolf, they have alot of more period type sights.

[Pigwacker]

6.5 mike - Haven't heard of them, but I'll take a look. Thanks

[Mooseman]

I Must disagree with an above post as I am a Winchester collector.

That Winchester can only be an 1894 and the serial number listed was made in
1897.(March or April) That is an early one and highly desireable if it is in very good shape.
Original sights and elevators are usually pretty spendy and any "Non-Original" replacements will devalue the gun quite a bit.
Value ranges from 750.00 in 10% Original shape to over 5000.00 for 95% shape or better.

Rich

[KirkD]

I Must disagree with an above post as I am a Winchester collector.

That Winchester can only be an 1894 and the serial number listed was made in
1897.(March or April)

Mooseman, I think you got your 1897 date from Madis' data or a published source which used Madis' data, which for the Model 1894 is seriously inaccurate for the Model 1894's. Because of this, Bert Hartman has put together a list of warehouse entry dates for the Model 1894 from the Cody records. The list I have is only a sampling, so I don't have Pigwacker's #83494 on it, but I do see that #79036 was entered into the warehouse on January 8, 1900 and #84801 was entered into the warehouse on March 24, 1900. #85741 was entered April 24, 1900. That suggests that Pigwacker's 83494 was entered in March of that year. In the list that I have, there are no 8xxxx series Model 1894's that were entered prior to 1900. Model 1894's made in 1897 are in the 2xxxx series (20041 to 28202) on my warehouse entry list.

I have a Model 1894 38-55 that, according to Madis, was made in 1896. However, I also have a Cody letter for it which states that my rifle, serial number 74059 was entered into the warehouse November 24th, 1899. Madis (from which most internet dates and published dates come) is badly off on his Model 1894's.

[Pigwacker]

Mooseman,
What would you do with the front sight blade and the elevator missing? Are there OEM blades and elevators available, if so, where can you find them? Are all replacement blades going to devalue the gun by the same amount? I would like to keep it as original as possible, but the blade is gone and I need something to make it shootable. No matter what it is worth, I only paid $250 for it, but it will never, in my lifetime, be sold.

[Pigwacker]

KirkD and Mooseman, you guys are starting to scare me! I'm almost afraid to think about taking it hunting. I do find it amazing, that, after over 100 years, the thing still works. I do find your comments very interesting and I'm sure my dad will as well (it's actually his gun). Thanks!

p.s. KirkD - I'm leaning toward the 150 gr gc boolits and I'll start with IMR 3031.

[oneokie]

I have one even older and I shoot it regularly.

[Mooseman]

Cody Firearms museum lists this gun serial number as made in the beginning of 1898( David Kennedys Data)...I been using Madis data for years as it is apparently what all my books use..hmm.
David Kennedy was working on the data and some errors were apparently made.

Pigwacker ...the fact remains that is an early gun but should be safe to shoot but a safety check by a qualified Winchester Gunsmith is always prudent on the antiques.

Contact Sbowers (S&M Gunsmithing in OK) who is on this forum and maybe he can help you locate those parts..he has some sources for Old Winchester parts.
Rich

[KirkD]

Cody Firearms museum lists this gun serial number as made in the beginning of 1898( David Kennedys Data)...I been using Madis data for years as it is apparently what all my books use..hmm.
David Kennedy was working on the data and some errors were apparently made.

David Kennedy, former curator at Cody, is a careful fellow. I wonder if his data uses the polishing room records? That might account for a date that is earlier than the Warehouse date. For those readers here who may not know this, the naked receiver was serialized in the Polishing room before being sent off for assembly. According to BATF, that is the date that determines whether or not the rifle has antique status. Most frames went into assembly immediately, but there are cases where a frame could sit around for a few years before being assembled. I have a Model 1876 where that happened. So relevant dates for any Winchester are:

1. Polishing room date (unassembled receiver was serialized)
2. Date it was received in the warehouse (usually within a day or so of completed assembly)
3. Shipping date (anywhere from the same day to a year later after entering the warehouse).

The Cody Museum has started issuing letters with all three dates on them. As for me, the most meaningful date is the date it was finished, which is the warehouse date.

With regard to whether one can shoot a rifle so old, let me reassure you, Pigwacker, that you most certainly can. I went hunting this year with a Model 1876 made in 1886. I do a lot of shooting with Winchesters that are over 100 years old. Of course, I do it with care, avoiding bumping them on rocks and trees, etc.