MidSouth Shooters SupplyLee PrecisionGraf & SonsBallisti-Cast
Titan ReloadingInline FabricationStainLess Steel MediaRotoMetals2
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: Win 452 AA Powder

  1. #1
    ********* Emeritus
    garandsrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    2,333

    Win 452 AA Powder

    Hi,

    I just purchased an unopened 10 lb carton of Win 452. I did a search here for some loads but didn't find many references to the powder.

    Does anyone use this powder? If so, what do you load it in? I know that it was primarilly a shotgun powder and has been discontinued. I checked a burn rate chart and it was close to 231, which I use for many of my pistol loads.

    I was hoping that it could be used in rifles similar to Red Dot or Unique. It is faster than Unique and slower than Red Dot.

    Thanks,
    John

  2. #2
    Boolit Master KYCaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Rineyville
    Posts
    2,364
    It used to be very popular for IPSC major loads in 45APC, but was apparently dropped by Win. because of its reversed temp. sensitivity. Hotter-is-slower-cooler-is-faster.

    When Win. dropped it, Hodgden picked it up and called it Titegroup. Same maker, same stuff.....same, same.

    Don't know if that helps any, but there it is.

    Jerry

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    454PB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helena, Mt.
    Posts
    5,142
    I've been using 5 grs. behind a 230 gr. Lee TC in my .45 auto. I haven't chronographed this load, but it feels fairly mild and shoots accurately. The burn rate chart I use shows AA452 slightly slower than 231.

    Titegroup, Huh.....thanks for that, never heard it before.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    454PB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helena, Mt.
    Posts
    5,142
    Take a look at this burn chart:

    http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

    It shows Titegroup 12 brackets faster than AA452. You would think the two powders should be closer on the chart.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    320
    Quote Originally Posted by KYCaster View Post
    It used to be very popular for IPSC major loads in 45APC, but was apparently dropped by Win. because of its reversed temp. sensitivity. Hotter-is-slower-cooler-is-faster.

    When Win. dropped it, Hodgden picked it up and called it Titegroup. Same maker, same stuff.....same, same.

    Don't know if that helps any, but there it is.

    Jerry
    Sorry, doesn't help. IIRC from personal experience Win 452 AA is the same as Hodgdon Trap 100, not Titegroup which has a different appearance with darker irregular grains and different burning characteristics.
    I've used old Hodgdon data for Trap 100 in light shotgun and handgun loads. Win only published light shotgun load data. I have no data and have not used any of these in other firearms. Data for what pistol loads would you want?
    Last edited by oso; 03-10-2007 at 11:31 PM. Reason: data
    Just because change doesn't make a difference doesn't mean that change is bad.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

    MtGun44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    eastern Kansas- suburb of KC
    Posts
    15,264
    IIRC 452AA was used for .38 Super major caliber loads, not .45 acp loads.
    I believe that this would put it's burning rate closer to Blue Dot
    or W571/HS7 range. I was chronoing a lot of match ammo in those
    days for IPSC matches and it definitely had the backwards temperature
    sensitivity, and I think it was being used to "make major" with heavy
    bullets in .38 Super. I never used it myself, and may 'misremember'
    the caliber it was used in.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    RayinNH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    2,304
    John, two other burn rate charts show it being between W231 and HP-38.

    http://home.hiwaay.net/%7Estargate/powder/powder.htm
    #41 on this chart, not even close to Titegroup.

    http://www.ramshot.com/powders/burnrate.php
    #20 on this chart, still a fair distance away from Titegroup.

    I have heard more than once that W231 and HP-38 were the same powder...Ray
    I've got the itch, but don't got the scratch.

    Democrats, uninsuring the insured.



  8. #8
    Boolit Master in Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    11,633
    No, Ray, they are the same speed, except for lot variations, but they are different powders made in different plants. ... felix
    felix

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

    RayinNH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    2,304
    Felix, thanks for clarifying...Ray
    I've got the itch, but don't got the scratch.

    Democrats, uninsuring the insured.



  10. #10
    ********* Emeritus
    garandsrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    2,333
    All,

    Thanks for the help identifying uses for this powder.... That's an interesting temperature sensitivity fact!

    I don't shoot .45 ACP at this point, so I am either looking for cast pistol loads in:
    38 spc
    357 mag
    9 mm
    45 Long Colt
    44 mag

    or cast rifle loads in:
    .223
    6.5x55
    .30 carbine
    30-30
    30-06
    7.5x55
    .375 Win

    I could always just use the powder for shotgun shells (primarilly 20 ga) which was it's original purpose, but the reality is that I don't shoot too much shotgun any more since I started shooting pistol and rifle.

    Thanks again,
    John

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    320
    Quote Originally Posted by garandsrus View Post
    All,
    I don't shoot .45 ACP at this point, so I am either looking for cast pistol loads in:
    38 spc
    357 mag
    9 mm
    45 Long Colt
    44 mag

    I could always just use the powder for shotgun shells (primarilly 20 ga) which was it's original purpose, but the reality is that I don't shoot too much shotgun any more since I started shooting pistol and rifle.

    Thanks again,
    John
    John, what bullet weights do you use in each handgun cartridge?
    This powder was originally used for 12 Ga target loads.
    Winchester does not list a 20 ga load with 452AA in the manuals I have at hand.
    Hodgdon lists 13.5 gr Trap 100 for 20 ga 2.75" 7/8 oz WAA wad in Win CF case at 1104 fps and 10,500 lup.
    Lyman Shotshell Handbook 2nd Ed. lists 17 gr 452 AA for 20 ga 2.75" 7/8 oz RXP20 wad in Rem RXP case at 1200 fps and 10,120 lup.
    Just because change doesn't make a difference doesn't mean that change is bad.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    949
    John,

    If I recall correctly(and I'm going back to the early/mid 80s when I started reloading shotshells) 452AA was a 12 ga powder, not 20. I believe the 20 ga Winchester powder was 473AA. Again I'm firing from memory here, so take it with a grain or two of salt.

    Just don't want to see anyone get hurt!

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    582
    Gentlemen,

    Maybe this will shed some light on this powder. I have a Winchester counter mat advertisement from several years ago when I worked in a gun shop. I keep it on my loading bench to lay things on as it is padded. It lists Winchester ball powders, along with their intended uses.

    Anyway, according o this mat "WST (win super target) powder is comparable to and SUCCEEDES 452AA". I'm not sure if this'll help, as I don't know about availability of WST data. I looked in an older WInchester data book and it lists WST in 12ga loads, 20ga 3/4oz loads , 38 Spl, 40 S&W, 10mm & 45 ACP loads. Another Winchester book may contain other loads. I have a selection of Winchester load books in my files from several years, I can look in them to see if I can find other loads with WST if this would be of any help.

    Hope this helps.

    SSB

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    436
    I found 452AA listed in the tenth edition Winchester Reloading Components Catalog and Ball Powder Propellant Loading Data, copyright 1985. It says this is the powder to duplicate the ballistics of 12 ga Double AA factory loads.

    For handguns, it is shown only in a couple 38 Special and 45 ACP loads. Other handgun powders listed are 231, 296, and some 680 loads. The manual includes 540 and 571 in various shot shell loads, which are reported by some sources as being equivalent to HS-6 and HS-7, but no handgun loads are listed.

    BeeMan

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

    MtGun44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    eastern Kansas- suburb of KC
    Posts
    15,264
    HS-6 = W541 and HS7=W571, only lot to lot variation differences.
    Same powder made in the same plant marketed by two different
    companies until Hodgdon took over marketing the Win powders.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master




    Boz330's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    4,297
    As KY Caster pointed out this powder is extremely sensitive to temp. change. I've shot well in excess of 100K in a 45 with an HG-68 200gr boolit. If you developed a load for 90* weather and shot that same load at 32* the velocity increase would be well in excess of 100FPS difference. I would think that the preasure would also be quite a bit higher, so be careful.
    The big advantage to this powder was it was cheap and the felt recoil was consideraby less than 231. I never used any in my Super since it was off the market by that time. I would be very leery of trying that stuff in any bottleneck case or rifle cartridge lest you be wearing it. When I loaded it I shot it. If you did work up a load in the summer and let it sit till cold weather and then tried to shoot it the preasure spike might be well over what the rifle could take.

    Be careful
    Bob

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southern Illinois
    Posts
    525

    good stuff

    That used to be my favorite powder for plinkers in 308 or 30/30. Just a few grains behind a 130 plinker.....fun, fun, fun....After I couldn't get it anymore...I went to Win Super lite...another good powder for plinkers but hard to get now.... I need to try the super target...if it works, I need several pounds....

  18. #18
    ********* Emeritus
    garandsrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    2,333
    Thanks everyone for the information.... I have a chronograph so I can check the velocity of the loads and record the temperature. I am just looking for light loads from this powder, so any increase in pressure shouldn't cause a problem.

    The 10 lb carton I bought is unopened and was $50. I will smell the powder to make sure that it hasn't gone bad. The person I bought it from is very knowledgable about reloading, guns, etc so I don't expect any problems.

    Castalott and Boz330 - Do you remember what your load data was?

    Thanks again to everyone that responded...

    John

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    48
    452AA is listed in Lyman's Shotshell Handbook 3rd Edition in the 12, 16 and 20 gauge sections. In the 12 gauge section it is used for 1 1/8 oz loads and is listed between Red Dot and Hi-Skor 700 (don't know if that placement in this list has anything to do with the burn rate or not). In the 16 gauge section it is listed with 1 oz loads between Red Dot and Unique. In the 20 gauge section it is listed as a7/8 oz load in the "lead spot" and just before Green Dot. Actually, there are very few listings for this powder in the entire book. I still have a pound of it from when I used to load "lead" shotgun (liked Unique and SR 7625 better) and until I read the above comments I had no idea where I could use it.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master


    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    munising Michigan
    Posts
    10,438
    I believe this is the right answer. Terry Merback is a freind of mine and back when he was a gun writter he was given a pile of it. He shoots it alot and when i came across some and couldnt find much data for it i asked him and he told me that his contact at win. said that wst replaced it and to use that data.
    Quote Originally Posted by singleshotbuff View Post
    Gentlemen,

    Maybe this will shed some light on this powder. I have a Winchester counter mat advertisement from several years ago when I worked in a gun shop. I keep it on my loading bench to lay things on as it is padded. It lists Winchester ball powders, along with their intended uses.

    Anyway, according o this mat "WST (win super target) powder is comparable to and SUCCEEDES 452AA". I'm not sure if this'll help, as I don't know about availability of WST data. I looked in an older WInchester data book and it lists WST in 12ga loads, 20ga 3/4oz loads , 38 Spl, 40 S&W, 10mm & 45 ACP loads. Another Winchester book may contain other loads. I have a selection of Winchester load books in my files from several years, I can look in them to see if I can find other loads with WST if this would be of any help.

    Hope this helps.

    SSB
    sixgun junky

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check