Cloth Patch Round Balls (12 ga.)

[longbow]

I have a question...

Has anyone here tried using a round ball cloth patched to bore? I am thinking smoothbore but maybe it doesn't matter.

I have read posts about cloth patching round balls into shotgun hulls like patching for a muzzleloader. IIRC this was specifically for 0.690" RB's.

I have read the same comment regarding small game rounds for high power rifle using small balls cloth patched into the case mouth.

In both cases I would have thought the cloth patch would have been stripped off by:

- rough hull sides
- opening the crimp (for shotgun)
- jump through the forcing cone (throat for rifle)

However, the poster said they were quite accurate so that implies that the patch stayed in place and centered the balls. I can say from experience that naked 0.690" RB's are not accurate... at least for me. I've tried naked 0.690" RB's in slug guns with cylinder bore, my Browning BPS with I/C choke and a choked muzzleloading shotgun. Accuracy in all cases was dismal! As in couldn't hit a barn wall if shooting from inside the barn! In fact 0.690" RB's haven't done well for me in shotcups either where other sizes shoot well... but this is about cloth patching.

Similar comments about the patch stripping off in high powered rifle but the poster said it works.

So, I am thinking that since there is always some leakage/blow by, maybe there is enough gas leakage to hold the patch in place against the ball until it seals in the bore then the patch is trapped just like in a muzzleloader. If the patch stays on in smoothbore and high power rifle, maybe it would even work in a rifled shotgun.

My curiosity is up so while sorting out some 0.735" RB's to send BT for testing I got out some 0.715" RB's and 0.690" RB's and checked fit in my barrel using some cloth I had downstairs.

The bore is large at 0.733", 0.715" RB's actually cast at 0.717"/0.718", 0.690" RB's cast at 0.689"/0.691", cloth is 0.011" thick cotton.

One layer gives a snug fit on 0.717" RB's and 2 layers gives a good fit for 0.690" RB's. Possibly 1 layer of denim or at least some other heavy cloth would allow one layer with 0.690" RB.

No matter, for initial testing because the one layer and 0.717" RB is perfect fit and that should tell the tale.

I still have my doubts the patch will stay on but unless someone else has proven this out I guess I will have to test.

If it works and provides good accuracy it would eliminate any possibility of leading and allows for "custom" fit of RB to bore by varying cloth thickness... and if it works in smoothbore it should work in rifled gun.

Has anyone here tried this?

Longbow

[Nobade]

Works great in my 870, loaded with black powder. Don't know how it works with smokeless.

[bikerbeans]

LB,

With 8k to 12k of gas pressure forcing the RB and patch down the bore i don't see how the patch could be stripped. Patches aren't stripped from RBs in a muzzleloader so i don't think they will strip in your SB shotgun.

BB

[megasupermagnum]

Works great in my 870, loaded with black powder. Don't know how it works with smokeless.

In a shell, or do you have a muzzleloader conversion?

[longbow]

BB:

There's a little difference between a patched ball in a plastic hull and a patched ball in a muzzleloader. A patched ball in a hull has wads and gas seal below it so while there will be some leakage it isn't the same as holding back the full pressure behind ball and patch, plus when loading a muzzleloader the patch is trapped between ball and barrel where in a hull the fit is looser and the gas is behind wads. Also, the hull is rough and as soon as the ball leaves the hull there is an even larger gap before the ball reaches the bore.

Not saying it can't work and maybe does but those differences are where I am questioning. Maybe there is enough leakage that the patch is effectively glued to the ball so makes the jump okay.

Nobade:

Load details?

What size ball?

What thickness patch?

Are you using card wads only or plastic gas seal?

Patched ball loaded directly onto powder?

What sort of accuracy are you getting at 50 yards?

If you are loading the patched ball onto the powder directly then there would be lots of gas leakage until patched ball is in the bore so I'd tend to think the gas would keep the patch on the ball in that case.

If a regular hull (plastic or paper) and even card wads only under patched ball and the patch stays on for you then it will likely work with smokeless.

This gives me a bit of hope it might work and I have no problem trying it out. If it works, great! If not nothing really lost but a bit of time. I've had bad results a time or two before! I'm just wondering if others have had success doing it and what sort of results they got. It provides another option where fit can be tailored to the to gun by varying cloth thickness. Really, 0.735" RB's solve most fit problems in that they swage down to suit pretty much any common bore diameter. But I have 0.715" RB and 0.690" RB moulds so cloth patching could be another avenue to try. It also provides a variety of ball weights ~ 0.690" RB's weigh about 1 1/8 oz. and 0.735" RB's weigh about 1 3/8 oz.

Cloth patching would also solve any leading issues though I have not really had any leading problems shooting 0.735" RB's so far.

On a similar note, I have cloth patched 0.662" RB's into shotcups in hulls with very good success but of course the shotcup carries the ball and patch through the rough spots and jump making sure the patch stays on. That allows using a ball of 1 oz. or a bit less depending on alloy.

Just looking to put all my round ball moulds to work here!

Longbow

[Nobade]

In cartridges. The same .715" ball and pillow ticking patch I use in my muzzle loading 12 bore rifle, just loaded into plastic shells. Accuracy is about what you'd expect for a smoothbore without any sights, I can hit a 10 inch plate at 50 yards most of the time offhand. No gas seal or anything, just powder and a patched ball. I tried that just to see what happened, I haven't used them for hunting or anything was just curious as to what would happen. The shotgun is a 870 police, so no choke just a short smooth barrel.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have an old 16 gauge center fire BP shotgun. It’s basically a wall hanger, but I like to say that I shoot all my wall hangers.
I have some paper hulls and have often wondered if I could load some patched round balls in them. With BP for sure. Maybe cutting off the part that gets folded in. What size round ball would I need. I have a mold for .69 cal, but surely that’s too big. What size ball would be best, if this could work at all?

[gpidaho]

longbow: Just to add to the "What if's" What if the hulls were cut to a length that only the powder and a gas seal fit (maybe about 3/16ths more hull) and then a tight patched round ball on top. That would seem to me to eliminate a couple of the patch stripping concerns. Gp

[Maven]

longbow, I'm not sure a patched RB in a CF shotgun shell is inherently more or less accurate than other solid projectiles. Firstly, in both ML and CF guns, we typically use an undersized ball. E.g., I typically use balls .598" - .604" (Lee mould and out-of-round Lyman mould) with a .014" (compressed) pillow ticking patch. Going to .018" just increase loading effort, but in my gun, not accuracy. Second, with an undersized ball, the kind (wool felt, card stock, tow) and perhaps number of such "wads" can make a difference, although there are "bare ball" purists who use just the ball satisfactorily. Third, powder charge, which suggests both pressure and muzzle velocity, can certainly make a difference, but with a CF cartridge, you'll have to experiment quite a bit: I'm thinking greater amounts of a slower propellant or even BP. Btw, I thought a bore sized ball (i.e., .618" - .619") would trump all in my ML trade gun, but it wasn't as accurate as a smaller diameter patched ball. Just some food for thought....

[longbow]

Nobade:

Okay then, I have the Lyman 0.715" RB mould that casts 0.717" and is a nice fit to bore with 0.011" (slight compression in micrometer) old cotton shirt patch. Without gas seal/wads under the patched ball I can see that gas pressure/leakage would hold the patch in place from cartridge to bore and once in the bore, same as a muzzleloader in that the patch is trapped between ball and bore.

Not sure how that would work with smokeless as too much leakage might drop pressure too much for good burn. Maybe a fast powder like Red Dot would do better than slow powder like Blue Dot.

GP:

You may be right there. If there's enough leakage to hold the patch in place through the chamber and forcing cone and into bore then it should be fine. I think even with a plastic gas seal the jump through extended chamber (short hull) and forcing cone will result in significant leakage until the patched ball is in the bore. Once there it is like a muzzleloaded ball.

GregLaROCHE:

0.662" RB is 16 ga. nominal bore size so fine in cylinder bore but I wouldn't be shooting one through a choked gun.

If 16 gs. wads are similar to 12 ga. for petal thickness they will run about 0.020" petal thickness so 0.662"-0.040" = 0.622" but again if choked you'll have to allow for the choke. General rule of thumb I see is that the ball and wad combination should be no more than about 0.003" larger than the tightest barrel constriction... so choke diameter + 0.003" - 0.040" = ball diameter. I'd think a 0.610" or 0.600" ball should be right in a standard wad. Of course wad petal thickness varies by brand and wad style so has to be checked.

Maven:

Not looking for it to be more accurate than say 0.735" RB's which do very well to 50 or 60 yards but it allows an option to use my 0.715" RB's and possibly 0.690" RB's with thick patch plus would eliminate leading issues (I really haven't had any significant leading but some people do).

The ability to shoot different size RB's has some benefit in that: 0.662" RB's (in shotcup) = 1 oz., 0.678" RB (in shotcup) = 1 + a bit oz., 0.690" RB's = 1 1/8" oz., 0.715 RB's = 1 1/4 oz. and 0.735" RB = 1 3/8 oz. All in pure lead and a little lighter in WW.

Not sure how patched ball would work in a choked barrel because the patched ball would have to suit the choke so might be too loose in the rest of the bore. Ball in shotcup is likely a better choice if the barrel is choked (at least tight choke) or has screw in choke tubes.

My thoughts anyway.

I'll see if I can find the posts on patching RB's for shotgun and high power rifle. I don't recall a lot of details, just that the posters said it worked. I just may have to load some up and try! I'm thinking the "new to me and hardly used yet" Mossberg Slugster with cylinder bore barrel should get a trip to the range or bush!

Longbow

[Nobade]

I would think if you wanted to try this with smokeless powder, then maybe cut the petals off a plastic wad and use that over the powder then the patched ball on top. That would give you the gas seal, and the compression section of modern wads will drop the chamber pressure a bit. Oh, I did check the fit by loading a patched ball in the muzzle and pushing it through. You sure wouldn't want to find out it fit all the way until it got to the choke!

[longbow]

Yeah... my plan would be to use a plastic gas seal over the powder then hard card wad column. Possibly cutting petals off a wad then putting a couple of 1/8" nitro card wads on top then the patched ball would work too.

My main concern is keeping the patch on the ball though as discussed. Possibly gas leakage does that and there should be no danger if the patch does strip, just poor accuracy.

My guns are cylinder bore... at least my slug testing guns are cylinder bore. My Browning BPS is I/C choke but I wouldn't use that one for a solid slug or ball. I bought the 0.715" RB mould for that one but found the choke actually measures 0.710". While 0.005"/0.007" bigger naked ball might not be an issue I have been reluctant to try it and certainly wouldn't with that ball patched.

Maybe time to patch and load some balls then head to the range!

Longbow

[FullTang]

I've tried patching the Lee .690 (usually about .685 as cast by me) in a few configurations, and never managed to get it to work. It clearly is stripping off the ball in both smooth and rifled guns---too many transitions; tried putting it in upside down, but that didn't work either (in terms of accuracy). One thing I've been meaning to try, but haven't gotten around to, is to use a heavily pre-waxed patch and basically melt it onto the ball to hold it in place (probably by heating the balls to around 200 deg F before pressing into the patch and seating in the hull. I assume it would come off after firing, but can't say it would, or if it would really help with accuracy.

[longbow]

FullTang:

Your experience has been my thought as to what I figured would happen but as you can see there are varying opinions and experience.

Did you recover any patches to examine?

I can buy into Nobade's patched ball directly over BP as something that could work since the patch is directly exposed to gas pressure but with smokeless loads and wad column there is going to be a lot less gas pressure to hold the patch in place in those transitions.

I had thought about putting the patch on upside down as well as it should stay in place into the bore that way... unless gas leakage is enough to blow it off where it is not tight like in the chamber jump. I couldn't figure out how to push a ball into a hull with an upside down patch on though! I guess a thin walled tube with patched ball pushed in then slide tube into hull and push patched ball out? Even if that worked and the patch stayed on, it would likely drag off the ball in flight irregularly and possibly start the ball spinning a bit.

The other thing I have been planning to try one day is to make some form or paper mache or use COW (or grits if you come from the South) or maybe cornmeal to make formed cups to set on top of the wad column then the ball into cup to keep the ball centered. The cup would crush and come apart at firing but should expand evenly to fill the bore so keep the ball centered on the way out... like a donut wad.

I'd have to make forms for O.D. and ball then press wet material to get it to form, then dry it so kind of a lot of work. Patching is quicker and easier if it works... or just carry on with 0.735" bore size balls and RB's in shotcups which works fine. Options are nice though!

I find that the 0.715" RB (casts 0.717") with about 0.011" thick cotton patch is perfect fit to my single shot bore at 0.733". I'll try it in my Mossberg Slugster which has a 0.729" bore. It'll be tighter for sure but should fit or if not a slightly thinner cloth patch will do it.

The 0.690" RB (mine cast right at 0.690" +/- a thou) is perfect fit in the same bore with two layers of patch so about 0.022" patch (denim might work here). I'm thinking two layer patch is not likely to stay together and on the ball through said transitions/jumps but again unless someone has experience I'd have to try it.

I looked for the posts I remembered on cloth patching and found some but not the more definite "It worked!" posts. Potato Boy posted good (decent?) results here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tch-round-ball

but not the posts/threads I remember.

I need some range time anyway so should just patch and load and try then report back. This is not difficult or dangerous I just need to get to it.

Longbow

[FullTang]

I did recover a few patches, and they were mangled in various different ways, so hard to make any sense or detect a pattern. I should note that I regularly shoot muzzle loaders, and they didn't look anything like my ML patches---no clear rifling engagement.

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB,

With 8k to 12k of gas pressure forcing the RB and patch down the bore i don't see how the patch could be stripped. Patches aren't stripped from RBs in a muzzleloader so i don't think they will strip in your SB shotgun.

BB

BB beat me to it! Surprising what 10K psi can do as far as cramming stuff thru small holes.

Randy

[longbow]

Agreed but there is a difference in the with muzzleloader that patch is stretched onto the ball at loading and is trapped all the way down the bore then is directly exposed to the full gas pressure on the way out while still trapped, where with cartridge shotgun the patch is most likely somewhat loose in the hull (which is rough) and it has to scrape by the hull mouth then make a loose jump through the forcing cone before, if it is all centered, the patch may be squeezed down onto the equator of the ball as it enters the bore.

If the ball rotates at all leaving the hull (drag on hull mouth/crimp?) or hits the side of the forcing cone then there is a good chance the patch will not be centered or evenly compressed. I think.

If there is enough gas pressure blowing by the gas seal to keep the patch "glued" to the ball and that same gas pressure helps blow the crimp open and then holds the patch on the non-rotating ball as it enters the bore it might work. Just seems like a lot of if's to me.

Since I have recovered 0.735" RB's with a slightly skewed belt around their equator I know that there can be some rotation on the ball as it enters the bore however it is induced from opening crimp or contacting one side of the forcing cone as it meets the bore... it happens. With a patch unless tight all the way that could dislodge the patch or lead to uneven patch squeeze.

My thought is what FullTang describes.

Now having said that, if someone can say they have had it work for them I won't doubt it. I'll be trying this regardless unless I get a bunch of responses that say it doesn't work. Then I won't bother.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

I know that part of the fun in this is trying to make something that shouldn't work, work in spite of the fact that it shouldn't. That is a BIG part of why I started shooting cast bullets instead of my early years in reloading with go as fast as you can 25-06 and 22-250 jacketed loads. So I get the idea behind the struggle BUT on this one I believe I'll just stick with the .735 round ball powder coated and call it good. I will follow with interest though! Gp

[stripercrazy]

very interesting, didn't the old buck and ball loads guys pre load the lead in a bag like thing (paper?)then just throw powder down the bore and load the bag(smoothbore)? if we put the .690 ball in a cloth bag that would engage the rifleing but the bag might be on the ball downrange....hmmm paper bag.....

[stripercrazy]

if a hull is close to .730 inside ,ball=.690 / a rifled barrel is what? .710/.715 thats 40/1000 of a inch, thinking it work if the patch is oversized and patched in the frount of the ball (backwards or reversed than a muzzleloader) if you seal the pressure so it dont blow the patch off the ball before it engages the rifleing....it comes out of the hull/patch is lubed and 30/1000 of a inch=.720 hit the rifleing spins the ball and hopely the patch falls off.......if the patch is on the back and the ball get to the rifleing it lead up your barrel in a muzzleloader the ball is allways covered with the patch where it hits the rifleing.....the better roundball muzzleloader are 1 in 66 inches TC alot are 1/48....rifled shotguns are faster twistrates...interesting