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Thread: Short/mini 12ga slug shells

  1. #21
    Boolit Mold Cottonpicker's Avatar
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    I am currently working up a load to duplicate the Aguila Mini Slug/Buckshot load. I am using a Maverick 88 12ga with an Op-Sol mini-clip I bought on Amazon. I took apart an Aguila slug and the components are powder, gas seal,and 7/8oz slug. I took a 3/4in pvc pipe and cut it to 1 3/4in to use as a guide to cut hulls.(I think I'm going to reduce length to 1 5/8 cause I'm having to use a 1/8in felt wad right now). I'm using pure lead with a Lee 7/8oz slug and Lee OO buckshot molds. I can load 6 OO buck which is equivalent to the 7/8 oz slug. The Aguila slug chronographed at 927 fps MV, I'm currently getting 950 MV using 12gr Red Dot. I'm going to reduce load to 11.5gr Red Dot and see what I get. Currently I'm using straight walled Euro hulls with a Ballistic Products GS-2 gas seal,1/8in felt wad, and clear plastic overshot card. (I plan on eliminating the 1/8 felt wad when I reduce length of hull to 1 5/8in) I'm roll crimping the hull with a Ballistic Products roll crimper and drill press with the BP Hull Vise. When using published load data for 7/8 oz loads I get around 1300 fps which produces more recoil than I'm looking for. Using the Op-Sol mini-clip I'm getting 100% cycling in the Mossberg 88. Pleas accept my info with caution. It is up to you to develop your own load. What works for me may not work for you!

  2. #22
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    If you are going to do it, do it right. Take chances and cut corners and you lose parts.

    I had an uncle who was a walking lesson in this. Part of it was not his fault. He was injured driving heavy equipment in the pacific island hopping in the big WWII. D6 cat's mostly from the story's he told.

    But by the time I got out of high school he was down to a thumb and a half, an index finger and a half, 2 stumpy middle fingers and that was it for hands. He managed, but he took chances and cut corners and he paid the price, again and again.

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cottonpicker View Post
    I am currently working up a load to duplicate the Aguila Mini Slug/Buckshot load. I am using a Maverick 88 12ga with an Op-Sol mini-clip I bought on Amazon. I took apart an Aguila slug and the components are powder, gas seal,and 7/8oz slug. I took a 3/4in pvc pipe and cut it to 1 3/4in to use as a guide to cut hulls.(I think I'm going to reduce length to 1 5/8 cause I'm having to use a 1/8in felt wad right now). I'm using pure lead with a Lee 7/8oz slug and Lee OO buckshot molds. I can load 6 OO buck which is equivalent to the 7/8 oz slug. The Aguila slug chronographed at 927 fps MV, I'm currently getting 950 MV using 12gr Red Dot. I'm going to reduce load to 11.5gr Red Dot and see what I get. Currently I'm using straight walled Euro hulls with a Ballistic Products GS-2 gas seal,1/8in felt wad, and clear plastic overshot card. (I plan on eliminating the 1/8 felt wad when I reduce length of hull to 1 5/8in) I'm roll crimping the hull with a Ballistic Products roll crimper and drill press with the BP Hull Vise. When using published load data for 7/8 oz loads I get around 1300 fps which produces more recoil than I'm looking for. Using the Op-Sol mini-clip I'm getting 100% cycling in the Mossberg 88. Pleas accept my info with caution. It is up to you to develop your own load. What works for me may not work for you!
    I know it's been a year since your post.. any updates, sucesses, failures?
    Also, you stated that you got 1300 fps with published data.. is that data for a standard 2 3/4 length shell which you then used in the shortend hull?
    Thanks..
    I believe in gold, silver, & lead, and the rights of free honest men... You can keep the "CHANGE"!

    Shad

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Watch out for pressure spikes with short hulls if using data for cushion leg wads. I cannot say positively but it appears from comparing reloading info that short hulls with no cushion leg wad develop higher pressures for given powder charge and payload than with cushion leg wad.

    I have some short hull reloading data for birdshot from BPI and that is the way it looks to me. My suspicion is that the cushion leg collapses producing more volume so keeping pressure lower. Remove the cushion leg and a pressure spike may result.

    Not sure on this and it would be nice to have some pressure testing done. Just saying be careful and if you get sticky extraction you are over pressure so stop there and drop the charge some.

    Also, watch for hollow base slug expanding to fill the chamber then having to squeeze down in the forcing cone. I had what I'll call a reloading mishap that way several years ago. Slightly different circumstances but resulting in a slug expanding to fill the chamber then not quite squeezing down through the forcing cone in time. You do not want to experience that! Nor do I again! The Lee Drive Key slugs should be okay. I was using a Lyman Foster in pure lead and they do expand to fill the bore quite easily. In a short hull they can expand to fill the chamber.

    Play but play safe!

    Longbow

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Watch the video, excellent!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzStAOvVKJY

    HV
    "When in doubt, empty the magazine!"

  6. #26
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    OK this guy has some really good ideas. I especially liked his hull vise. His hull trimming method is cheap and works well to the point I don't see why we are buying hull trimmers when we could just get a piece of 3/4" PVC and make all the different lengths we could ever need.

    His solution for Roll crimping with a drill motor and getting the crimp on strait was pretty simple too.

    I was impressed and his ammunition looked pretty decent. Just goes to show you, there's a lot of people out there working on the same stuff as we are.

    Randy

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiVelocity View Post
    Watch the video, excellent!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzStAOvVKJY

    HV
    GREAT Video. Simple solutions.

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Yes, I like his hull vice! Simple and effective. I was thinking about making a nut cracker style with a hinge but his is simpler. Simple is good when it works. I'll save some big bucks on a hinge for sure!

    Not sure I've got any decent plywood but I'll find something to copy that simple squeeze vice.

    I wonder how short I can go with my Brenneke'ized Lee slugs. They are almost ready for testing. I guess I should find out if they are any more accurate than as cast first. If so they are good candidates for fairly short hulls and I have lots to shorten. I use 3/4" steel pipe cut to length for hull trimming. I've them for 3", 2 3/4", 2 1/2", 2 1/4" and 2" haven't gone as short as 1 3/4". I'll have to see what the Slugster will feed.

    Longbow

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Some great ideas ther but I'm suspicious of the load. I suspect without the overpowder cup there will be huge gas blow-by. He's also cut off the compression legs which seems to me would be a high pressure load.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have to watch the video closer, just scanned though quick like. I didn't notice if he had nitro card wads or other gas seal but as I have mentioned, I had some shotcups I had cut gas seals off for full bore slug loads and a whole whack of 12 ga. nitro card wads so decided to try using two nitro card wads over the powder then a hard card wad then shotcup with wad slug. Blow by was much more than I expected! The shotcups were burned and black with gas cut petals! Plastic gas seal make a huge difference in containing gas compared to nitro card wads!

  11. #31
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
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    Without a gas seal the gas bypass will limit the pressure and velocity of the load. A shortened hull will increase the jump to the bore and will decrease the accuracy of the load. Other than 3 gun competitions, short hulls are fairly useless.

    BB

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master

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    A good gas seal should help control leakage some but true enough the jump from a 1 3/4" hull through a 3" chamber isn't likely to do much good for slug accuracy. Might not be too hard on buckshot loads though.

    A guy would have to try each length with slugs and buckshot to find out how they perform but the gas leakage won't help either.

    It would be interesting to compare old timey load data pre plastic gas seal to modern data. I'm betting powder charges were heavier to offset leakage. Those loads could be dangerous if a plastic gas seal was used.

    I don't have any load data that old but there must be some around.

    Longbow

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have some of that data. I would have to dig it out to give comparative numbers but it is indeed higher in charge weight--around 20% as I recall.
    Cast is an adjective, a noun and a verb. Cast works as both imperative and past tense without any additional letters or helping verbs.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Treeman:

    Any possibility you could post some or all of those old timey loads? I know I would certainly be interested and I am sure there are others that would be too.

    A guy can never have too much info for shotshell reloading! This guy can't anyway.

    Thanks,
    Longbow

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy
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    Longbow, I went looking and didn't find it....yet. I'll look some more and try to locate it to share.
    Cast is an adjective, a noun and a verb. Cast works as both imperative and past tense without any additional letters or helping verbs.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Not a problem. If you find it eventually though that would be great!

    I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be much old shotshell reloading info around. Lots of old brass cartridge reloading info but not much shotshell info ... at least that I can find.

    Longbow

  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy
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    So I'm back with what I was able to dig up in the old data I have. I THOUGHT that I had some 12 gauge Red dot and Unique data with card wads but I haven't found it. I do have some .410 and 28 gauge data....Plastic wad columns or at least a plastic gas seal have been standard in 12 gauge for a LONG time!

    1968-1969 Dupont Handloaders guide.

    .410 skeet load(1/2 oz 9s) Rem plastic Hull rem 69 primer 18 grains 4227 3/16 +1/8 felt wads 8400psi a

    .410 skeet Rem plastic rem 69 primer 19 gr 4227 3/16+1/8felt 9300p b

    28ga skeet 3/4 oz 9s Rem plastic rem 57 primer 20 gr 4756 card and felt 8300

    28 gauge skeet Fed paper Win 209 primer 15.5 PB card and felt 9700


    28 ga Fed paper Fed 209 primer 19 4756 card and felt 9200

    1986 Dupont Handloaders guide

    .410 skeet load Rem plastic Fed 209 primer 15.5 4227 sp410 10300

    .410 skeet load Fed plastic Fed 209 primer 15.5 4227 sp410 11100

    28 ga skeet Fed Hi Power CCI 209 14 PB Sp28 10100

    28 ga skeet Rem SP Fed 209 16 4756 Sp28 9800

    28 ga Rem SP Win 209 17 4756 Sp28 8400

    I have tried to select loads with as many components in common as possible. I believe that the a and b notations on the oldest 410 data reflect 2.5 versus 3 inch pressure gun chambers but did not find that in the source document.
    Cast is an adjective, a noun and a verb. Cast works as both imperative and past tense without any additional letters or helping verbs.

  18. #38
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have found some 1974 Hodgdon data with card wads and trap 100 versus plastic shotcup wads. Charge weights are higher with the card wads but not as great a percentage as demonstrated in the .410/28 gauge data above. Interestingly the Hodgdon data cautions strongly against substituting plastic wads in place of cards since "This variable alone can cause a 25% difference in breech pressure."
    Cast is an adjective, a noun and a verb. Cast works as both imperative and past tense without any additional letters or helping verbs.

  19. #39
    Boolit Mold Cottonpicker's Avatar
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    I just wanted to give an update on my 12ga minishell loads. These loads are not hunting loads, they are close range loads! I chronographed an Aguila Mini Slug at about 927 fps.The mini slug load I use (7/8 oz Lee mold with 11.5grs Red Dot) gives 926 fps so it's pretty close velocity wise with the factory load. This involves the use of a gas seal between powder and slug with a good roll crimp. I use 6x OO buck with 11.5 gr Red Dot,or 19x 4 buck with 12.5 gr Red Dot for similar loads. I've loaded some birdshot loads using a 1/8" felt wad over the gas seal. I guess if your looking for something up close with minimal recoil a minishell is the way to go.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    For those who seek the OpSol mini clip on Amazon, you won't find it, Amazon went full snowflake:

    http://www.opsolmini-clip.com/counterfeit-products

    Buy directly from their site.
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    "Dueling should have never been made illegal in this country. It settled lots of issues between folks."- Char-Gar

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check