Going KABOOM with undercharged loads?

[BruceB]

I'd also suggest that the non-believers read about the explosion of my wife's rifle. Ddo a search for "Karen moose" and you will find a thread titled "The day Karen Met The Moose".

Total destruction caused by ....well, go read the story.

I AM a believer, and I read the Stowers article in Handloader when it first came out. He was able to create the extreme-pressure conditions at will while REDUCING the loads.

[Larry Gibson]

M4bushy

It is not "detonation" that causes SEE it is the bore obstruction. That is what we find in the case here with 4227 in the 270 with jacketed bullets. The primer moved the bullet into a fouled throat/leade and it stuck there before the powder started to burn efficiently. The powder then caught fire and reached catastrophic psi before the bullet began to move. Suggest you read the article (Handloader)[/I] that was posted. It is not a myth when it is reproducible and the effects are measureable before the KABOOM. I too have discussed this with technicians and ballisticians from several of the powder manufacturers, and yes they all agree that “detonation” of smokeless powder is a myth. I also agree with them. However, as I stated, this is not about “detonation”, this is about a bore obstruction. Suggest you recontact those you have discussed this with and ask them if a bore obstruction can make a firearm go Kaboom. I think we all know what their answer will be.

The article by CE “Ed” Harris that Brett has posted is also real world and documented proof of SEE. Unfortuneately Harris uses the word “detonation” which is not the case. The evidence was there (“It might be fifth or sixth shot, when the new test-shooting barrel blew up) for the bullet to stick in the throat/leade as it became fouled but was not correctly noted. The more this phenomonum has been studied the more it was realized the “bore obstruction” was the cause. Simply compare the results to known bore obstruction kabooms and you’ll see they are identical.

In many cases of Kaboom I do not doubt "human error" as the cause. However, in this case all the elements for a SEE are there.

As swheeler mentions a dacron filler is best to use with 2400, 4227, 5744, 4198 and 4759 with reduced loads using cast bullets as it aides in ignition efficiency. Many get away without using the filler.....but some don't.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Aren't those all rifle powders? The op was about a handgun round. Apples and oranges.......there are myths of tightgroup blowing up big bore revolvers with light loads. 7.5 gr of tightgroup behind a 400 gr lead bullet is a safe load in my 480 ruger if I mistakenly doubled it 15 gr (still plenty of room in the case) I would expect a catastrophic event. It wasn't the light load in a large case, it's I screwed up.

Yes they are "rifle" powders but 2 of them are more commomly used in handguns. However, SEE is not weapon specific or even cartridge specific. SEE requires a set of circumstances be met regardless of the cartridge or the particular firearm type.

BTW; I did not read in the OP's first post that this was about handgun cartridges in handguns(?).

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

Yup they all disbelieve.....until it happens. That was my case when I was in the ruination of a very good M3000 Mauser .280 Remington throated long for long seated match bullets..........Norma 205, lightweight varmint bullet...."proven worked up load" with magnum primers but didn't have anymore so use a standard CCI 200) .......1shot was ok....2nd shot had to pry open the bolt handle but neither of us gave it much mind as the load was "proven"....3 shot di the trick....fortunately John only got gas in his face and nothing else. Rifle was completely wrecked.

BTW that load was individully weighed out and filled the case to 1/2 of the neck....positively no chance for a double or triple charge. Obviously it was the change to the weaker primer that adversely affected ignition. All the SEE elements/conditions are certainly there.

Larry Gibson

[fryboy]

the one i witnessed was a 45 colt 6 shot revolver ( NOT a rifle ) my prior post list powder in 3 positions in the case - all of which will change the pressure/velocity - something you can check yourself or conveniently label a " myth" the direction you take as well as your deductions will be your own choosing , many people believe in god tho they have never seen him etc ... are those people wrong ? maybe maybe not but you cant prove it either way is this then a myth ? and all those blown up firearms are the result of nothing but operator error ? and double charges ? even the ones that happened with factory loaded ammo ( aka why some ammunition companies ever recalled some lots of ammo then is beyond me ... or suggested that light bullets and blue dot in the 357 magnum shouldnt be used ) eh it's all a myth just because you cant blow up your gun at will ........... brilliant simply brilliant and rather self serving IMHO

[M4bushy]

the one i witnessed was a 45 colt 6 shot revolver ( NOT a rifle ) my prior post list powder in 3 positions in the case - all of which will change the pressure/velocity - something you can check yourself or conveniently label a " myth" the direction you take as well as your deductions will be your own choosing , many people believe in god tho they have never seen him etc ... are those people wrong ? maybe maybe not but you cant prove it either way is this then a myth ? and all those blown up firearms are the result of nothing but operator error ? and double charges ? even the ones that happened with factory loaded ammo ( aka why some ammunition companies ever recalled some lots of ammo then is beyond me ... or suggested that light bullets and blue dot in the 357 magnum shouldnt be used ) eh it's all a myth just because you cant blow up your gun at will ........... brilliant simply brilliant and rather self serving IMHO

Is this ok?

[M4bushy]

BruceB

Yup they all disbelieve.....until it happens. That was my case when I was in the ruination of a very good M3000 Mauser .280 Remington throated long for long seated match bullets..........Norma 205, lightweight varmint bullet...."proven worked up load" with magnum primers but didn't have anymore so use a standard CCI 200) .......1shot was ok....2nd shot had to pry open the bolt handle but neither of us gave it much mind as the load was "proven"....3 shot di the trick....fortunately John only got gas in his face and nothing else. Rifle was completely wrecked.

BTW that load was individully weighed out and filled the case to 1/2 of the neck....positively no chance for a double or triple charge. Obviously it was the change to the weaker primer that adversely affected ignition. All the SEE elements/conditions are certainly there.

Larry Gibson

If you changed a component it isn't a proven load anymore!

[waksupi]

It's not the light loads, it's when people screw up and double charge the light loads.......

I guess you can try that in your experiments. Double charge a light load of slow powder, you would MAYBE get up to a normal load, without overflowing a case.

[felix]

Larry, the word detonation has a funky definition/implication. Nothing starts and stops at the same time. If so, the big bang theory can be absolutely true making the time dimension irrelevant. There would be no expansion or contraction of the universe and its elements contained within. We know elements are created and destroyed within a time domain. ... felix

[M4bushy]

Yes they are "rifle" powders but 2 of them are more commomly used in handguns. However, SEE is not weapon specific or even cartridge specific. SEE requires a set of circumstances be met regardless of the cartridge or the particular firearm type.

BTW; I did not read in the OP's first post that this was about handgun cartridges in handguns(?).

Larry Gibson

After doing more reading on the s.e.e. phenom I see we are talking about two different issues. The issue I thought you were talking about is light (but in the book) loads in large case handgun cases with powders such as tight group. The example the tech at Hodgdon gave me about this is. "if we could get more energy out of the powder than we put in, we would be in the power business instead of the gunpowder business.

If I understand correctly, the S.E.E. phenom is basically obstructing the barrel with the primer charge wedging the bullet then touching off the powder charge causing a huge pressure spike in the chamber. Correct?


Ron

[Reload3006]

that is one possibility. also understand that when you fire a round it goes bang but there was not an explosion. there was a very fast burn that caused high pressure to fill the case / chamber of your fire arm. The laws of physics says that the pressure will follow the path of least resistance therefore the bullet leaves the barrel instead of breaching the chamber.
Now if that pressure spikes before the bullet can start moving as in an explosion the bullet does not have time to start moving before the metal of the chamber is breached. in a smaller scale of course but none the less explosive and very high pressures. Now the same thing happens in flour mills sugar mills saw mills anywhere a burnable or fuel source is mixed with the proper amount of oxygen you have the recipe for an explosion. or a very fast burn. with the net result being the same.

[fryboy]

Is this ok?

actually it was with 125 grain hollow points , you'd have to ask their engineers why that particular combo ended up being bad juju , they posted a blurb about it and advised against it and if you care to look at their data ( like you did to pull up the 110 grain page ) you'll note that the 125 and 135 grain bullets DO NOT list a blue dot recipe and the bullets bracketing those weights do have a blue dot recipe but what do they know after all ..remember supposedly it's just a myth ....

[fryboy]

i would edit for add but eh try this link ( since whatever anyone states seems to hold no merit because we're not a accredited lab )
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303766

"ATK Commercial Products
900 Ehlen Drive Anoka, MN 55303
www.atk.com
July 25, 2008
Dear Functional Wholesaler:
Please distribute this letter to all of your customers immediately with instructions for them to do the following:
• Post this letter in a highly visible area of their establishment
• Distribute to their customers as soon as possible
Alliant Powder Blue Dot® Product Safety Notice
Alliant Powder® periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that recommended recipes have not changed over time.
During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder’s Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).
Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.
We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.
Thank you for your cooperation and if you have any questions or concerns please contact me at Dick.Quesenberry@ATK.com or call me at 540-639-8503.
Dick Quesenberry
Alliant Powder
Product Line Manager"

i guess they prefer to merely err on the side of caution ? ( and less lawsuits etc ?? )

http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting...y_notices.aspx

[Oreo]

This is an interesting subject & I thank all of you who have taken the time to share your knowledge & post articles. Consider me one reloader possibly saved by having read this thread in time to avoid a problem.

I have noticed "something" when loading .40sw & 10mm reduced loads of WSF, (& maybe Longshot) trying to make low-recoil rounds for new shooters. Testing the loads I discovered most functioned predictably but occasionally I'd get a round that felt & sounded very different in a scary sort of way. I can't know exactly what was happening, & I'm not above considering loading errors on my part but I can say I don't have this issue with any of my other loads. Something was up with that particular recipe. Having read this thread I'll not be making anymore rounds like those.

[Larry Gibson]

If you changed a component it isn't a proven load anymore!

Well duh!!! Had I known then (early '70s) what I know now..........

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

After doing more reading on the s.e.e. phenom I see we are talking about two different issues. The issue I thought you were talking about is light (but in the book) loads in large case handgun cases with powders such as tight group. The example the tech at Hodgdon gave me about this is. "if we could get more energy out of the powder than we put in, we would be in the power business instead of the gunpowder business.

If I understand correctly, the S.E.E. phenom is basically obstructing the barrel with the primer charge wedging the bullet then touching off the powder charge causing a huge pressure spike in the chamber. Correct?


Ron

Now you are catching on.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, the word detonation has a funky definition/implication. Nothing starts and stops at the same time. If so, the big bang theory can be absolutely true making the time dimension irrelevant. There would be no expansion or contraction of the universe and its elements contained within. We know elements are created and destroyed within a time domain. ... felix

Explosives "detonate". Progressive powders (even the fastest) burn. Engineers know that as do ballisticians. If progressive powders "detonated" at all you would need an explosive license to handle and store them. Progressive powders may indeed burn fast but they do not detonate. For example; there is absolutely no way that 2.7 gr of Bullseye under a 148 gr WC has enough energy within the powder itself to cause enough pressure to wreck a K-frame S&W, just isn't enough physically stored energy there no matter what kind "theories" or "hypothosis" we may dream up.

Larry Gibson

[altitude_19]

If I understand correctly, the S.E.E. phenom is basically obstructing the barrel with the primer charge wedging the bullet then touching off the powder charge causing a huge pressure spike in the chamber.

HOW is that even possible? Isn't that charge DESIGNED to move that bullet down the barrel? Pressure is raised out of limits when you attempt to ignite a charge to send a bullet down the bore? The bullet in the barrel is a resistance the cartridge is specifically assembled to overcome, isn't it?

[Mooseman]

Actually , Explosives BURN at different rates but usually very fast , but even they do have a limit. I Have dealt with explosives both military and civilian types and Put on Large Pyrotechnic shows years ago. I hope the below explanation explains what happens as how it can relate to gunpowder charges for firearms...

Low Explosive
An explosive which utilizes chemical formulas which combust when a certain amount of initial energy is applied to them. Most fireworks, with the exceptions of large salutes, fall into this category. The rate at which the pyrotechnic composition burns is mostly dependent upon the rate at which the composition can transfer heat from one layer of itself to another. When a composition's rate of reaction is very slow, it is known as burning. Examples of a pyrotechnic composition which "burns" would be a star in an aerial shell, flares, or gerbes. Burn rate is also highly dependent on pressure and temperature. Therefore, when a pyrotechnic composition is confined, its burn rate is accelerated. When the reaction is sped up drastically due to increases in pressure and temperature, such as the case with the burst charge in an aerial shell, it becomes explosive, and is known as deflagration. In an aerial shell, the temperature and pressure build up while the composition inside of it is burning. Once the pressure from the hot gases created during the reaction reaches a certain point, the casing will fail, rupturing outward, giving an explosion.
High Explosive
A device in which the explosive composition will detonate once initiated. High explosives can be initiated in several manners. The one that concerns us the most in the case of fireworks is deflagration to detonation. An example of this process is seen in large (or confined) quantities of flash powder. One ingredient in flash powder is aluminum. Aluminum is known for it's ability to transfer heat and it's high heat of reaction (thermal energy produced when it combusts). Since the rate at which a pyrotechnic composition burns is dependent upon how well it can transfer heat, this is a very important property. Once ignited, the flame front in flash powder reaches supersonic velocities, thus creating a shock wave in the composition. Once a shock front is accomplished, the rate at which the composition burns is no longer dependent on how well it can transfer heat (as in the case of a low explosive). The burn rate is now dependent upon how well the explosive composition can transfer the detonation wave (shock wave) through itself. A salute must be large enough to allow for a shock front to be formed in order for a detonation to occur. This means a minimum amount (critical mass) of flash powder must be used to achieve detonation. Confinement of the flash powder in a salute lowers the amount of flash powder needed. A detonation releases a great amount of energy in a very short period of time, hence the reason salutes are much louder and have a "sharper"(caused by the shock wave) boom.
Gunpowder is Nitrocellulose based which is a nitroglycerine relative which is what ?An EXPLOSIVE !
Gunpowder does have other chemicals which by formulation control the burn rate , but, The burning rate of smokeless powder increases with increased pressure. The flame a primer puts out will come out the end of a rifle barrel, and if it fires over the top of a layer of gunpowder it ignites More surface area than it actually would with a fairly packed case. Primers are powered enough to push a bullet into the rifling where normally the pressure continues to rise in milliseconds on a curve but , it is a start of the curve and then a sudden spike of pressure that causes the High Overpressure problem and that tests the strength and elasticity of steel. If the steel can't handle it, you have Catastrophic failure like a grenade.
If you load a percussion Muzzleloader with smokeless pistol powder do you think it will hold together ? Will that Colt Walker handle a small load of 296 , H110, or unique ?
Deflagration...It is a risk I am not willing to take...
ANY time you fire a round you are dealing with a controlled explosion and high pressures because a bullet or Boolit wouldnt work otherwise.
The advice I use is Respect it, keep within Known Limits, and always pay attention to every detail when dealing with any Powder/cartridge/ or explosive.
I still have all my fingers and eyes so far.
Please Be SAFE Guys.

[Swampman]

It's not the light loads, it's when people screw up and double charge the light loads.......

Correct.....

I believe guns blow up because folks make mistakes. I just don't believe in detonation as defined by modern magazine writers.