Going KABOOM with undercharged loads?

[Bret4207]

I would be convinced it was caused by anything else other than a reduced powder charge. Reduced H110 and W296 will squib when reduced. That can stick a bullet in the barrel. Detonation from reduced powder charges is a myth.

The "wives tale" involves small charges of extremely slow burning powders in very large cases, not reduced loads of relatively fast powders in relatively small cases. I question the validity of the "double charge" theory when you consider this has happened in cases where a double charge would overflow the case. I think in some cases we don't understand the entire event and a lot of it sounds fishy, but in the interest of safety we need to err to the side of caution.

Here's one post from CE "Ed" Harris that mentions the lab test-

A main reason of S.E.E. is disorder of powder ignition. Powder charge does not burn after the explosion of a priming pellet. It smoulders like a German tinder, developing a cocktail of explosive gasses like nitrogen oxides, hydrogen (very reactive "In Statu Nascendi" hydrogen - not yet bound to H2 molecules), and carbon monoxide. When this highly flammable mixture of gasses catches fire from still smouldering solid powder remnants, may the "BANG !" be horrible. Mere three grains of gasses may literally wreck the strong .308 Win. rifle action. (Three grains of smouldered solid powder is still three grains of material, despite of it's gaseous form of existence).

Maximum allowed chamber pressure of .308 Win. factory-loaded cartridges is 3600 atmospheres. Case head stands 4000 atm. but the action may be hard to open and the empty shell is usually no more reloadable. Primer pocket may be enlarged and/or the primer blown. Pressure 4200 to 4500 atm. may blow the case head, and the action of many rifles stands as much pressure as the cartridge head; no more.

Severe hand and/or eye injuries of the shooter are possible if the action fails. Eye injuries, including the permanent loss of eyesight, are possible, when the case head fails. This depends on construction of firearm's action, but use of eye protection is always advisable when one is bustling with weaponry. Highest measured detonation pressure was 10 000 atmospheres. A pietzo-electric pressure gauge was broken and highest grade on the pressure scale was this 10 kilobars. A sturdy test-barrel of a German gun-proofing laboratory was wrecked, of course.

This disastrous test was repeated with another set of equipment for the sake of comparison. Pressures of first shots were slightly less than normal. It might be fifth or sixth shot, when the new test-shooting barrel blew up. Again a pressure gauge disintegrated and a scale told: 10 000 atmospheres! It was presumably just a fraction from whole horrible truth, because so called "wave pressure" of a detonation may exceed reading A HUNDRED THOUSAND ATMOSPHERES, when the explosive material is in gaseous form of existence, pre-heated and pressurized before explosion.

Caliber of tested cartridge was .243 Winchester, bullet weight 80 grains, powder then-new NORMA MRP, and the charge... surprisingly... just 15 % less than a maximum (compressed !) load. It was STILL A REDUCED CHARGE DETONATION; not one caused by an excessive charge, because the charge could not be excessive with those components in use. Light bullet and slowly burning powder is not an advisable combination of loading components for .243 Win., known as a caliber prone to S.E. Effect. (It's "big brother" .308 and "kid brother" .22-250 are considerably less risky; last mentioned presumably because of more steep 25 degrees shoulder angle).

Needless to say: All the loading components were examined carefully afterwards. They were faultless. Just the burning rate of powder was selected wrongly for the bullet weight. MRP powder is O.K. for .243 Win., but for the heaviest bullets of this caliber; weight 100 or 105 grains. For the most usual 90 grainer bullets is some more fast-burning propellant advisable.

Noted was a slightly less than a tenth of second lasting delay between hit of a striker and explosion. This same delay is noted also by survivors of S.E.E. accidents, if they can remember something from the "big bang". (Usual recollection is: "I squeezed the trigger and woke up in the hospital"). If the delay lasts a second or more, it is just an usual hang-fire, without signs of excessive pressure.

[NSP64]

Having survived a KABOOM with everything, but the rifle, intact, I will decline to try and do it again.
Light charge of IMR4227 in 270win, 140gr SP bullet. It was shooting fine until about 20th round went KABOOM. I have since read that lite charges in hot chambers might do this.

P.S. Took me two weeks to get the brass fragments dug out of my face. It seems that those holes in the action serve a useful purpose. My older Husqy didn't have those. And molten brass does not cauterize the wounds when it goes in.

[Reload3006]

this weekend I will try to find my loading pamphlets from Olin on WW-296. Alas I feel that its probably a wasted effort. Because some people will not believe anything until they kill themselves or someone else. I guess thats Darwinism in action. Hopefully these folks have not reproduced and polluted the gene pool.

[btroj]

I don't have first hand knowledge on SEE but will say that I don't use reduced charges of slow burning rifle powders. Not ever. Why take a chance?

As for powders like Bullseye, those are most likely double charges.

[Mooseman]

I would be convinced it was caused by anything else other than a reduced powder charge. Reduced H110 and W296 will squib when reduced. That can stick a bullet in the barrel. Detonation from reduced powder charges is a myth.

Well if you believe that then I say test it with your guns...and Ill stay away from you on the range.
If 296 and 110 will do it , so will others. Too bad we didnt have digital photos and computers back when we had Blown up guns come into the gunshop in pieces back in the 70's so I could show you proof.
Light load target shooters experimenting blew S&W guns apart with below min loads.
Had A Colt 1911 that bulged the chamber and barrel and jammed with a light load too.
Anytime you play with a controlled explosion stuff can happen...its why we rely on test data...and Manuals for guidance.

[fryboy]

even with common speed ( and commonly used ) powders such as unique light loads can vary pressure and velocity - you can prove this to yourself , merely load a cast boolit over a lite ( but safe ) charge of unique , before you fire point the muzzle upwards assuring that all the powder is against the primer , carefully lower and fire , now do it again but this time point the muzzle down until all the powder is against the boolit , raise slowly to keep the powder there and fire - now compare the chrony readings ...how can they be different you say ? after all it's the same carefully weighed charge hmmmmmm... now do a third one - holding the firearm level shake back and forth to level the powder against the bottom the the case and then fire ..what still a different reading ? how can that be ??? after all it's the same exact carefully weighed charge as in the other two but if you didnt just get 3 different velocities with corresponding different pressures my name is barry sotero ( and you voted for me )
and i agree with mooseman - if you're testing to make a gun go kaboom ( or even ammo loaded outside of listed aceptable charge weights - either end of the spectrum ) stay away from everyone at a range , i too saw a kaboom and the memory haunts me

[felix]

Those who don't believe in SEE occurrences have had sheltered lives. Any pressurized system having fluid/gas flow is a potential environment. Examples would be the previous engine knock explanation, and the noise contained within water pumps that sound like rocks are contained. We are just lucky a SEE does not go into the destructive state more often than it does. I guess there are a lot of folks who actually are aware of a very possible pipe hammering noise of hot water being turned on at their sink after a vacation, and then never looked into the matter further than offering a WHY statement. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Having survived a KABOOM with everything, but the rifle, intact, I will decline to try and do it again.
Light charge of IMR4227 in 270win, 140gr SP bullet. It was shooting fine until about 20th round went KABOOM. I have since read that lite charges in hot chambers might do this.

P.S. Took me two weeks to get the brass fragments dug out of my face. It seems that those holes in the action serve a useful purpose. My older Husqy didn't have those. And molten brass does not cauterize the wounds when it goes in.

Hmmmmm......let's see (no pun)......light charge of 4227 and obviously a lot of air space for the primer blast to blow over the 4227 before it ignited pushing the bullet into the throat/leade where it stuck........because of 20 rounds of such a low intensity load there was probably a lot of grit/fouling in the throat/leade........the 4227 then ignites and with a stuck bullet.....KABOOM!!!!!!

Classic SEE

Larry Gibson

[Reload3006]

Hmmmmm......let's see (no pun)......light charge of 4227 and obviously a lot of air space for the primer blast to blow over the 4227 before it ignited pushing the bullet into the throat/leade where it stuck........because of 20 rounds of such a low intensity load there was probably a lot of grit/fouling in the throat/leade........the 4227 then ignites and with a stuck bullet.....KABOOM!!!!!!

Classic SEE

Larry Gibson

But Larry they dont happen its a myth .....

[Swampman]

It is a myth. Like I said folks need to blame something or sombody else. It's couldn't be human error on their part..........

[Swampman]

Well if you believe that then I say test it with your guns...and Ill stay away from you on the range.
If 296 and 110 will do it , so will others. Too bad we didnt have digital photos and computers back when we had Blown up guns come into the gunshop in pieces back in the 70's so I could show you proof.
Light load target shooters experimenting blew S&W guns apart with below min loads.
Had A Colt 1911 that bulged the chamber and barrel and jammed with a light load too.
Anytime you play with a controlled explosion stuff can happen...its why we rely on test data...and Manuals for guidance.

None of the things you mention reflect detonation....This is what we are talking about correct?

[swheeler]

Hmmmmm......let's see (no pun)......light charge of 4227 and obviously a lot of air space for the primer blast to blow over the 4227 before it ignited pushing the bullet into the throat/leade where it stuck........because of 20 rounds of such a low intensity load there was probably a lot of grit/fouling in the throat/leade........the 4227 then ignites and with a stuck bullet.....KABOOM!!!!!!

Classic SEE

Larry Gibson

Looks like a good place for some dacron filler to be used. SEE not just for reduced loads of REAL SLOW POWDER anymore!

[M4bushy]

Hmmmmm......let's see (no pun)......light charge of 4227 and obviously a lot of air space for the primer blast to blow over the 4227 before it ignited pushing the bullet into the throat/leade where it stuck........because of 20 rounds of such a low intensity load there was probably a lot of grit/fouling in the throat/leade........the 4227 then ignites and with a stuck bullet.....KABOOM!!!!!!

Classic SEE

Larry Gibson

Maybe a plausible theory but I still don't buy it!

[Mooseman]

It is a myth. Like I said folks need to blame something or sombody else. It's couldn't be human error on their part..........

Trolls seem to exist....I thought they were a myth.

[waksupi]

You guys go ahead and shoot this next season only using reduced loads of slow powders, and report back here in a year. Let us know your findings. There is obviously nothing to be worried about, and you can be known as myth busters.

[M4bushy]

You guys go ahead and shoot this next season only using reduced loads of slow powders, and report back here in a year. Let us know your findings. There is obviously nothing to be worried about, and you can be known as myth busters.

It's not the light loads, it's when people screw up and double charge the light loads.......

[Larry Gibson]

M4bushy

It is not "detonation" that causes SEE it is the bore obstruction. Suggest you read the article (Handloader)[/I] that was posted. It is not a myth when it is reporducable and the effects are measureable before the KABOOM.

As swheeler mentions a dacron filler is best to use with 2400, 4227, 5744, 4198 and 4759 with reduced loads using cast bullets as it aides in ignition effeciency. Many get away without using the filler.....but some don't.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson:

What lab or test facility, please?

I think we need to hear from them. Directly.

Best I could find it was Dupont but am not sure. Who ever it is I doubt they will release any information otherwise it would have been identified in the article. I have experienced the exact same pressure spiking with my own 6.5x55 M38 when using 85 gr jacketed HPs and a slow burning ball powder. Fortunetely I am quite familiar with the Handloader article and was also measuring the psi and did not Kaboom my M36. I not longer use the 85 gr jacketed bullets with slow powders in the long throated M38.

Larry Gibson

[M4bushy]

M4bushy

It is not "detonation" that causes SEE it is the bore obstruction. Suggest you read the article (Handloader)[/I] that was posted. It is not a myth when it is reporducable and the effects are measureable before the KABOOM.

As swheeler mentions a dacron filler is best to use with 2400, 4227, 5744, 4198 and 4759 with reduced loads using cast bullets as it aides in ignition effeciency. Many get away without using the filler.....but some don't.

Larry Gibson

Aren't those all rifle powders? The op was about a handgun round. Apples and oranges.......there are myths of tightgroup blowing up big bore revolvers with light loads. 7.5 gr of tightgroup behind a 400 gr lead bullet is a safe load in my 480 ruger if I mistakenly doubled it 15 gr (still plenty of room in the case) I would expect a catastrophic event. It wasn't the light load in a large case, it's I screwed up.

[Larry Gibson]

This was a "wifestale" in NRA Bullseye pistol. Ever once in a while some one would blow up a .38 Revolver and claim it was charge of 2.8 grains of Bullseye powder.
Hecules now Alliant could never replicate the event. Most were double charges or a squib load (leaving a bullet in the barrel) then a regular load.

As a LEO firearms instructor I was privey to the Hercules test report at an instructor seminar I attended. They actually found a double charge with a deep seated bullet or a triple charge could Kaboom a K frame S&W (most common revolver used in PPC at the time).

Larry Gibson