NEF pressure limits

[parrott1969]

I keep reading where the NEF 45-70 is only capable of handling lever action loads. Why is this?? NEF chambers their rifles for 500 S&W and it operates at a max pressure of 60,000 psi and launches a projectile up to 500 grains. In my mind (and quick loads) the muzzle blast, internal pressures and recoil will be the same as 45-70 using ruger #1 load data. Am I missing something??

[cajun shooter]

Some people are thinking of the earlier made H&R Shirlaki(not sure about spelling)which came out in 1972. They were made with iron type receivers and built in 44magnum and 45-70 rifles. I still have my 45-70. They were not to be reloaded past the trapdoor listed loadings of that time because of receiver strength.
The modern Handi-Rifles and Buffalo Classic rifles may handle the same pressures as any modern single shot. They are made in several calibers that have over 50,000 PSI ratings.
They have two versions that are known as the S 1 or S 2 receivers. The S 1 being the shotgun receiver and light calibers guns.
If you go to the Greybeard forum they have a complete section involving this gun with tons of printed information. They even have a sell and swap section on them.

[parrott1969]

Cajun shooter, I have been to graybeards several times. Lots of great information. I have a handi in 35 whelen and load some pretty stiff rounds for it. I just can not understand why so many people keep saying that the handi rifle can not take 50,000 psi load in the 45-70. It takes the presure in 06, 35 whelen, 500 S&W and many other calibers. So why do so many people insist that the rifle can not handle the same presure in 45-70? Afterall presure is presure, right???

[tacklebury]

It's a lot like .45 Colt. People have their misnomer's about many cartridges, because the original guns for them are weak or their original brass is weak. The only thing to be really careful of is that your higher pressure version loads don't end up in the wrong gun or in someone else's gun that might not handle it.

[NickSS]

The S1 receiver will not handle hot loads and should be restricted to around 25000 psi or such. The S2 receiver will handle the hottest loads that are safe in a rifle. However, such loads are really not fun to shoot in a handy rifle. I speak from experience on this. I have shot some 500 gr soft points from my 45-70 barrel loaded with a compressed load of 3031. The rifle held up just fine but even with a recoil shield on my shoulder I ended up with a large bruise and a case of whiplash that gave me a soar neck for several days after firing just three of those loads. I pulled the rest of them down and loaded more saner loads.

[oldred]

Afterall presure is presure, right???

first don't worry about that rifle and heavy 45/70 loads (within reason of course) but the statement that "pressure is pressure" is not quite accurate if it is intended to mean that 50,000 PSI would have the same effects regardless of the cartridge. The large case head on the 45/70 could produce far more bolt thrust (or breach thrust in this instance) than a case with a smaller head diameter. Other factors also come into play such as bottle neck vs straight wall cases so it could be a mistake to assume that just because a rifle can handle 50,000 PSI in one caliber that it could handle that much pressure with any caliber.

[leadman]

If the gun opens from the pressure being too high for too long where do you think the case is going to end up?

Handi rifles, along with the T/C break open guns have been known to open upon firing.

I had a locking bolt break on my Encore rifle in 7mm Rem Mag a few months back. The case almost made it out of the chamber. The only thing that stopped it was the gun was in a Leadsled and the barrel did not open all the way so the case caught the top of the breech.
Almost more fun than I wanted that day!

[yovinny]

Not having messed with one of these in 20+ years, I have a question.
Do these 'new' reciever models still use only a simple angled pivot latch to keep them closed against the force of firing ?

[oldred]

If the gun opens from the pressure being too high for too long where do you think the case is going to end up?

Handi rifles, along with the T/C break open guns have been known to open upon firing.

I have almost no experience with H&R except for the shotguns but I had a contender that was prone to opening on firing, from what I have read it's not all that uncommon and is a fairly easy fix, and as a kid I had a Stevens shotgun that popped open on almost every shot. When it, and the Contender, did pop open it was uneventful although annoying and I have never heard of anyone being hurt by this happening, anyone know of an accident such as this causing an injury?

[Clark]

When I got a 45/70 handi rifle used for $100 about 15 years ago, there were no published loads for it.
There were 3 published levels; Ruger #1, Lever action, and Trapdoor.

I had my father the chief engineer of gun design and a mechanical engineering professor show me how to calculate the strength.

I learned about Lame's formula for thick wall hoop stress, action pins in double shear, and section modulus.

I concluded it was way stronger than the brass. I posted that on line, and someone gave me grief that I was not qualified, because I am an electrical engineer.

So I validated the calculations by overloading the rifle until the brass flowed into the crack between the extractor and the chamber.

I used Unique [so I could get enough powder to fit] and 405 gr bullets with lube bands.

I used Quickload to predict the pressure

"87,841 psi, 1911 fps, case head expansion .0025", case head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor"

But now I realize that people do not want to change what they believe and will come up with all kinds of twisted logic.

Fear of pressure in hand loading is NOT going to go away.

Those who base their beliefs on calculations and experimental data are outnumbered by those who base their beliefs on what is emotionally convenient.

What does it all mean?
Those who did not like my calculations, were not convinced by adding data.



If someone somewhere want to think that a Rem700 is stronger than a handi rifle, let him. He is probably not into math, anyway.

Shooting double loads of the published Ruger #1 loads is not going to impress him either.

[parrott1969]

Thanks guy's. I am not wanting to hot rod the 45-70 but I do like to load a good stiff load. The best all around load that I have found that works in 99% of rifles is a 300 grain jacketed bullet over 52 grains of H4198. Has a pretty good kick ( everytime I pull the trigger I see dead people, once after a five round string I say old Abe Lincolon) but its flattens deer out to 200 yards like a steam roller. Did I mention that it clover leafs at 100 yards??

[JIMinPHX]

There were at least 2 & maybe 3 or more different material/hear treat combination that were used to construct Handi Rifles & their sister shotguns over the years. Although dimensionally identical, they vary quite a bit in strength. This is not unique to that particular rifle. Many other rifle receivers from reputable manufacturers have been built to different specs for different calibers, despite sharing the same model number.

I concur about those things not being comfortable to shoot with hot rifle calibers. The biggest caliber that I've fired in a Handi was a 7mm express. Even with the stock stuffed full of lead shot, it still kicked my shoulder pretty good.

Some of the guys over on Grey Beard have reported seeing the frames on those things stretch after several firings with hot (magnum?) rifle calibers. I haven't seen that myself. That is just what I have read. After looking at that sight, it would appear that the guys there have a lot of experience with the Handi Rifle, but I'm not sure how much of what is written there I can really trust. Some of the "expert advice" that I have seen on that sight makes me cringe. The whole idea of adjusting head space using drill bits & beer can shims gets me a bit nervous. I don't spend much time over there.

[Clark]

The CZ52 has a chamber .056" thick and an RC hardness from 25 to 47 [ 120 ksi to 223 ksi tension yield].
Eastern Com block ammo measures at 42 c.u.p., except Russian that measures 30 c.u.p.
With an inside diameter of .390", we can't help but ask why are not more of these blowing up?

"Sierra 50th" 1995 "The VZ52 is an extremely strong pistol. ..
For pistols less robust.. . reloads reduced drastically .. such as the Tokarev."

I have since convinced Sierra that they got it wrong. The Tokarev is much stronger than the CZ52.

The 45/70 handi rifle has chamber walls .308" thick with an inside diameter of .5", one could try to extrapolate the material that a handi rifle would ever have to be built with to fail [with the hottest loads possible with cartridge brass not failing ], and the chamber would not be what you would call steel, or brass, or Aluminum. It would have to be made of Lead or plastic.

[yovinny]

Clark, maybe you should explain to these good people about the forces working against a Cantilevered hinged action and how the thickness of barrel has nothing to do with the strength of the reciever or it's parts.

[canyon-ghost]

Those who base their beliefs on calculations and experimental data are outnumbered by those who base their beliefs on what is emotionally convenient.

I keep asking, "come on, guys, can't you just shoot the gun?" Even the chronograph differs from the paper version.

[Clark]

Vinny, I don't like the tone and I don't do section modulus calculations through the breech face for bad guys.

[Alan]

I never owned a shikari, but I did own a Buffalo Classic that my brother now has. Very simple formula here. Start at Trapdoor levels. Increase charges no more that .5 grain at a time and shoot 10 shot groups. You will run out of shoulder WAY before you run out of gun.

[yovinny]

Vinny, I don't like the tone and I don't do section modulus calculations through the breech face for bad guys.

Now I'm a 'bad guy' ?

Because I asked you to explain the forces on one of these rifles when fired and why you’re statement about how thick the barrel is means nothing ?

Because I don’t want some unsuspecting person believing you’re drivel and nonsense and getting themselves hurt ?

Because you can’t back up anything you say when faced with someone who knows just a little about engineering and has made you look foolish before on other gun forums ?

Yes, then I guess I’m a ‘bad guy’

[oldred]

What I don't understand is the fascination some people have with loading a cartridge to the ragged edge, not aiming this at anyone here just that it seems to be a common practice. I had buddy who owned a 45/70 Encore (the one I own now) who got some rounds from a co-worker who proudly proclaimed they were loaded to 458 Lott levels! I don't know if he meant he was getting 458 Lott velocities, which I SERIOUSLY doubt, or if he had just managed to get a 458 Lott charge in the shorter case. Most likely he is just full of...well you know, but in any case the guy is an example of what I am talking about. I convinced my buddy not to shoot these by showing him some pictures of exploded rifles and we broke them down to be reloaded with a safer charge, the unknown powder from these rounds was used in the flower bed. Another example of over-loading the 45/70 was a guy at the local range who bragged that his loads were so heavy that he had to let the cases cool before they would extract and this was in a Marlin lever action! This attitude of "just load it up until it explodes then back off a couple of grains" is all too common but it makes no sense, sticking with published loads using the right components or carefully developing a sane load that stays below max pressures is the only safe thing to do. Most of these "super" loads are not only totally unnecessary but usually wildly inaccurate, what good is a super powerful load if it won't hit the target?

Like I said I am not talking about anyone in particular just ranting a bit about what seems to be a dangerous practice.

[9.3X62AL]

Hey, Clark--good to see you again.

No dog in this fight, I don't own an NEF rifle. My own thoughts, having a Ruger #1 in 45-70......my shoulder gives out long before the rifle would consider saying "UNCLE".