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Thread: Faster Buckshot loads!

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post

    Questions:

    #1 - if 6 pellets are moving faster at 1700 fps, that should equal or exceed the pellet energy ft lbs of 9 pellets moving slower at 1300 fps??????


    #2 - are the faster loads able to keep their pattern together????

    No use having a fast load if the pattern will not hold together.
    To paraphrase Bill Jordan's famous dictum:

    Speed is fine, pattern is final!

    Ralph McLaney
    Last edited by RMc; 12-14-2013 at 08:37 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by FullTang View Post
    The nickel plated buckshot is probably key, as is the felt wad; both should help reduce pellet deformation, and keep the pattern. I'm a big fan of light, fast buckshot loads for tactical/home defense use, but this is precisely because faster pellets lose their energy more quickly (aerodynamic resistance is proportional to the cube of velocity, so pellets going twice as fast lose energy 8 times as fast.) So, lighter and faster loads are devastating up close, but not so great for longer range, and the greater acceleration during firing causes greater pellet deformation and wider patterns, all other factors being equal.
    Thank you!

    I was not aware of that principle.

    This changes my thinking about the high velocity loads I was considering.

  3. #63
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    In India we used LG's ( Buck shots ) on every animals except Elephants, the poor farmers only had double shotguns often loaded with buck shots to protect their farm from the herds of Elephants and would often shoot LG's above the Elephant heads to scare them off ! !

    When faced with Tigers and Leopards at close range at night would use LG's.

    We all should try loading them and keep them handy.

    Guess what I found at BPI loads of the week faster Buck shots for 12 and 10 ga.
    LOAD OF THE WEEK

    Special Loads

    C anticipates all hunters will begin to gather reloading materials – EARLY!



    Load#160519-8106 (EXPRESS BUCKSHOT)

    HULL: CHEDDITE 12ga 2.75”

    PRIMER: CH209

    PROPELLANT: (ALLIANT) PROREACH 34.0 gr.

    WAD: CLBC (Mica dust wad please.) Two long slits plus 18FW20 wad in base.

    SHOT: Lead Buckshot #2 stacked in Rows of 3, 5 rows for a total of 15 pellets. (Approx. 425 grains.)

    CRIMP: FOLD

    RESULTS: PSI 10000 FPS 1565



    Load#160519-8107 (EXPRESS DUCK)

    HULL: FEDERAL 12ga 3.00”

    PRIMER: FED209A

    PROPELLANT: (ALLIANT) PROREACH 36.5 gr.

    WAD: BPGS + CLBC + 18FW20 in wad base (Mica dust wad please.)

    SHOT: 7/8 oz. 382 gr. Steel shot #2

    CRIMP: FOLD

    RESULTS: PSI 11000 FPS 1710


    This is your routine feral hog load with nickel-plated lead buckshot.



    Load#160210-7805

    HULL: FIOCCHI - 12ga 3.50”

    PRIMER: FIO-616

    PROPELLANT: (ALLIANT) Pro Reach 44.0 GR.

    WAD: FS12 + MG42 + 14FW20 (Mica dust wad please.)

    SHOT: 8 pellets of #00 Nickel-Plated buck. 1/4” felt 20 ga. cushion wad under the pellets. Buck is set into the wad in rows of 2 with 4 rows equaling 8 pellets in total.

    Load is buffered with 12 grains of buffer material.

    CRIMP: Fold – 6 point using an OS12 overshot card.

    RESULTS: PSI 11000 FPS 1710


    12 GA 3.00” #00 Nickel-Plated lead buckshot

    LOAD#: 160217-7820

    HULL: FIOCCHI - 12ga 3.00”

    PRIMER: FIO616

    PROPELLANT: (ALLIANT) Pro Reach 36.0 GR.

    WAD: BPGS + MG42 (Mica dust wad please.)

    SHOT: 8 pellets (4 layers of 2 = 8 pellets of Nickel Plated lead #00 buck.) Approx. 412 gr.

    Load is buffered with 12 grains of Mix #47 Buffer.

    CRIMP: + OS12 Fold – 6 point

    RESULTS: PSI 9100 FPS 1565


    10 Gauge
    Load#150417-6425 (CRANES & DRONES)

    HULL: CHEDDITE-10ga. 3.5”

    PRIMER: CH209

    PROPELLANT: (ALLIANT) PROREACH 40 gr.

    WAD: X10X + NC10 + PT1044 (Mica dust wad please.)

    SHOT: 1 ½ oz. Lead Buckshot BB or T shot (NOTE: Cranes are not considered waterfowl.)

    CRIMP: +OS10 FOLD

    RESULTS: PSI 9500 FPS 1410

    Time to rock the boat and have fun.
    We never got to the point where we experimented with Proreach powder, after seeing these loads and how good they are speed wise, I wish we had included Proreach too ! !

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 03-16-2018 at 11:58 AM.

  4. #64
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    Any round ball loses velocity quickly - especially if it is less than rifle calibre, and the higher the velocity, the faster it loses it. But flatness of trajectory isn't significant with buckshot. Keeping to limits of pressure and recoil gives you a choice between velocity which it loses, and mass and number of pellets, which remains constant. So more shot is better than more speed.

    Nickeled plated shot gives virtual immunity to shot fusing together, but I don't believe it affects shot deformation. The advantages it confers could probably be equalled by powder coating or various other forms of paint, or by a paper disc between each layer of shot.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    Any round ball loses velocity quickly - especially if it is less than rifle calibre, and the higher the velocity, the faster it loses it. But flatness of trajectory isn't significant with buckshot. Keeping to limits of pressure and recoil gives you a choice between velocity which it loses, and mass and number of pellets, which remains constant. So more shot is better than more speed.

    Nickeled plated shot gives virtual immunity to shot fusing together, but I don't believe it affects shot deformation. ...
    I concur and offer this observation:

    Just for fun, go to the BPI website, find the buckshot chart listed with the current BPI Buckshot manual and then compare the per pellet weights shown with their lead alloy and nickel plated 00B*.

    And:

    For those who wish to compare round ball velocity loss rates, this site provides a suitable vehicle for such inquiry.

    http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...allistics.html

    * The heavier pellet, of the same diameter, will have the highest percentage of pure lead content. All hardening metals are lighter then lead.



    Last edited by RMc; 03-18-2018 at 12:24 AM.

  6. #66
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    Special Thanks to RMc for posting this article, enjoy reading it with a pot full of coffee:






    Don't under estimate their P O W E R.
    Load them and have some around, you never know when the need arrives ! !

    In India we used LG's ( Buck shots ) on every animals except Elephants, the poor farmers only had double shotguns often loaded with buck shots to protect their farm from the herds of Elephants and would often shoot LG's above the Elephant heads to scare them off ! !

    When faced with Tigers and Leopards at close range at night would use LG's.

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  7. #67
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    Oh, the vagaries of differing analogue shot size constructs!

    The website below charts the differences between American, English, European and Australian shot size "systems."

    http://www.hallowellco.com/shot_size_chart.htm

    SSG Buckshot apparently remains a popular load in Australia:

    https://www.winchesteraustralia.com....ucts/RWB12PSSG
    Last edited by RMc; 03-29-2018 at 10:29 AM.

  8. #68
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    Greetings brother RMc, you are good, keep hitting the nail on the head.
    Great chart from the past, any one who thinks the Buck shots are not very effective needs to load them up and shoot a few dozens to see the destruction power that it has.
    The forest is very dense in India just like US and most shots are within 10 to 30 yards and 40 to 50 yards being a long shot, how can one go wrong with OOO Buck shots.
    We can Wrap the Buck shots column with thicker paper to get a denser pattern at a bit longer range, I said a bit ! ! ( Good 10 to 15 yards )

    All commonsense and the willingness to go out and test our babies ! !

    Thanks again Brother RMc, we are all in it to win it.

    All for one, one for all the Elite Musketeer Special Group.

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 03-16-2018 at 08:33 PM.

  9. #69
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    I'm not surprised that they have a bit of a reputation for losing wounded animals. A lot of people can't tell the difference between 50 yards and 100, especially in an excited moment, and with just about any buckshot load long range produces reduced power and a strong chance of no pellet hitting a vital spot.

    But some very knowledgeable African hunters would switch to a shotgun, usually 12ga, loaded with large buckshot, when they had to follow up a lion or leopard into cover. They found it worked, and although the lion is reported to be less hard to kill than many antelope, you need instant extinction a lot more. Once in Kuwait I got to handle someone's pet leopard, which appeared to like me, and see a skeleton in a museum, almost in the same week. I still wouldn't like to guess how tenacious of life a leopard would be. They feel like solid muscle, and yet have mostly small and frail bones, a bit like a snake.

    Still, we are talking about situations in which really long range, like 50 yards, is a luxury they are unlikely to have, and the animal is likely to be hit by a lot of pellets close together. I saw something in Vincent di Maio's "Gunshot Wounds" which might explain the effectiveness of multiple buckshot hits. He illustrates how high-velocity bullet impact creates a bottle-shaped temporary cavity, and much of the tissue which then bounces back will be devitalised, and require removal, or debridement, by a military surgeon. Shotgun pellets are found at the apex of an acutely angled cone-shaped hole, which is why in an age which was more robust with orchard theft than out own, birdshot didn't quite present quite as nasty a forceps job as you might think. Just fairly nasty.

    My theory, without a shred of proof, is that in multiple hits close together, devitalisation is increased by multiple shock-waves meeting between the holes. In terms of pure energy delivered, a buckshot hit isn't very different from the steady emptying of a pocket pistol. But the latter is far more likely to provoke the steady walk forward which is almost unstoppable, in man or beast. This does provide a possible explanation. Half a dozen simultaneous hits appear to be a lot more effective, not only than one, but than half a dozen fired one at a time.

  10. #70
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    Not that long ago there was Western Buckshot.

    Indeed, Western #8 Buckshot, (.26"), is my prefered conventional buckshot pellet size in the 2.75" 20 gauge.

    Below: 1930s vintage 12 gauge Remington Buckshot round marked: 0B Eastern / 4 Buckshot Western. Both designations for the same .32" pellet.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 4B Eastern   0B Western.jpg  
    Last edited by RMc; 11-28-2018 at 10:32 PM.

  11. #71
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    My 2 sons are 3 years apart and #1 started at age 10 with 20 ga #3 - 2 3/4" loads. in 3 yrs he killed 6 bucks out of wooden stands I had made. #2 son started at age 10 and I decided that's what I would hunt with too. IIRC we killed 13 between us the next 3 yrs, some pretty decent animals in the mix. So a toatal of 18-20 deer with 20 ga. #3 loads. Grandson did the same more recently. Shots were from 15 - 35 yds. We never lost one and the longest run was maybe 100 yds or less. 2 observations stand out: Unlike a deer shot through the lungs with say, a .308 that can occasionally run 100 yds blowing blood out both sides, most of the buckshot hit deer either hit the ground struggling or just seemed paralyzed by the shock and stumbled off a little ways and fell over. The other thing is that while the buckshot is relatively low energy compared to a hunting rifle all the hits stayed in the deer, often just under the skin on the opposite side. I can't explain it other than all the energy of the load is expended in the animal. Yes, buckshot is a relatively short range proposition. It is NOT a load for head on shots unless you get lucky. But it is undeniably lethal and a great weapon to teach kids the basics of woodsmanship and the limits of there weapon. We are blessed in my part of the world with abundant game and ample wingshooting. I've killed lots of animals with everything but a spear and I had to choose one weapon for life it would have to be a reliable shotgun--especially with slugs in the mix.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  12. #72
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    Speaking of faster buckshot loads:

    Here's a buckshot idea I've been brewing on from time to time. The concept is based on a special disc which keep the pellets from touching each other and the bore, while at the same time acts as a cushion to prevent pellet deforming. The design in the pictures is based on #4 buckshot (6.1mm) Other sizes would need different discs. The discs would be injection molded in a plastic like ABS - strong, but still brittle enough that each disc will snap at the thin links into ten individual pieces during launch. Hopefully this will keep the bits of discs from interfering with the pellets in flight, but this is just a theory - for all I know they could turn it into a spreader-load instead.

    The discs would make it easy to vary the loads in steps of five from 25 to 40 or even 45 - as long as you don't run out of shell length.

    I have never done any buckshot shooting myself. Buckshot has been illegal for decades over here, and the project is more of a brain exercise, but I do have molds for most sizes and if I run into someone with a 3-D printer it could be fun to give it a try.


    Cap'n Morgan

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    My 2 sons are 3 years apart and #1 started at age 10 with 20 ga #3 - 2 3/4" loads. in 3 yrs he killed 6 bucks out of wooden stands I had made. #2 son started at age 10 and I decided that's what I would hunt with too. IIRC we killed 13 between us the next 3 yrs, some pretty decent animals in the mix. So a toatal of 18-20 deer with 20 ga. #3 loads. Grandson did the same more recently. Shots were from 15 - 35 yds. We never lost one and the longest run was maybe 100 yds or less. 2 observations stand out: Unlike a deer shot through the lungs with say, a .308 that can occasionally run 100 yds blowing blood out both sides, most of the buckshot hit deer either hit the ground struggling or just seemed paralyzed by the shock and stumbled off a little ways and fell over. The other thing is that while the buckshot is relatively low energy compared to a hunting rifle all the hits stayed in the deer, often just under the skin on the opposite side. I can't explain it other than all the energy of the load is expended in the animal. Yes, buckshot is a relatively short range proposition. It is NOT a load for head on shots unless you get lucky. But it is undeniably lethal and a great weapon to teach kids the basics of woodsmanship and the limits of there weapon. We are blessed in my part of the world with abundant game and ample wingshooting. I've killed lots of animals with everything but a spear and I had to choose one weapon for life it would have to be a reliable shotgun--especially with slugs in the mix.
    I am a 20 ga. lover, and shot more than my share of deer with buckshot. My biggest issue was a blood trail. Most my deer were being pushed by dogs, and would go more than 100 yards. For still hunting, I still have my sxs.

  14. #74
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    Cap'n Morgan's device looks very promising, athough pellets touching each other and the bore are also a spreader device. We hear so much about spreader devices and concentrator devices that I think some people would toss a coin to decide between them. Anything to boost confidence, except settling for a plain old no-device pattern.

    Those discs are complicated, and 3D printing as many as you need would take time. It might also be possible to press them from something frangible, like a hard wax or a mixture of sawdust and wax or shellac. If you can arrange two groups of marginally larger ball-bearings which just touch in a tubular mould of cartridge case diameter, the lead shot which you then substitute should be held just short of touching each other or the bore.

    If you used a waxy substance you would have to devise some way of preventing the pellets from sticking to the discs. (Unless you want a concentrator device, of course.) This could be tissue paper or pressing the warm wax discs in sawdust, like fish fillets in breadcrumbs.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 03-20-2018 at 04:39 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    "This could be issue paper or pressing the warm wax discs in sawdust, like fish fillets in breadcrumbs.
    Interesting idea. Makes me want to create some .730 dia "BuckCakes" of sawdust, wax and #4 Buckshot that could just be dropped into a hull to load. No extra filler needed.

    Cap'n I love the idea of a frangible buckshot disk. You sir are an evil genius! I'm very jelous of your talents.

    Kraken Fan #69

  16. #76
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    I wonder if damp, fine-granular sawdust could be pressed into shape - and still hold its shape when dried. If the buffer material can be compacted before loading, it will protect the pellets much better.
    Cap'n Morgan

  17. #77
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    Not sure how well it would work by wet/wax pressing.....but you could try rough machining a few from mdf board they use to make cheap furniture/cabinets. Just for a few prototypes. You also could do some out of like a paper machet (sp?). Newspaper bits and elmers glue.

    I'd like to see that version with a rod down the center and they come apart like a flight control wad with the petals that act as a parachute at the back.

  18. #78
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    The shotshell industry seems to be ahead of the game on this one...

    ...with a Turkey load, a Varmint load and now the long wait* begins for a Buckshot load.
    Yes, it seems buckshot is still the last load to benefit from new shotshell technology.

    Winchester’s new Longbeard XR and Varmint-X with Shot-Lok Technology

    From 2013* on Shot-Lok Turkey loads:

    http://www.gameandfishmag.com/huntin...r-turkey-load/

    From 2016* on Shot-Lok Predator Loads:

    https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...shotgun-shells

    So the question now is when will the new liquid resin be released to the shotshell handloader? Perhaps in a few decades?
    Last edited by RMc; 03-26-2018 at 12:40 PM.

  19. #79
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    There was a thread somewhere on here about the best rifle load for a possum, and it ran 10 pages or more! A possum! Are there armor plated turkeys somewhere in the land I don't know about? The 40 or more that I killed flopped like crazy when you put few #6s through their head, or 7 1/2s for that matter. Purring 'em in those last 20 yds is what makes it a hunt, not a shoot. Different strokes, I know...
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    There was a thread somewhere on here about the best rifle load for a possum, and it ran 10 pages or more! A possum! Are there armor plated turkeys somewhere in the land I don't know about? The 40 or more that I killed flopped like crazy when you put few #6s through their head, or 7 1/2s for that matter. Purring 'em in those last 20 yds is what makes it a hunt, not a shoot. Different strokes, I know...
    When I read your post, I imediately thought of this article on turkey hunting with a riot gun!

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...fense-shotgun/

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check