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Thread: Faster Buckshot loads!

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by RMc View Post
    ...with a Turkey load, a Varmint load and now the wait begins for a Buckshot load.
    Yes, it seems buckshot is still the last load to benefit from new shotshell technology.

    Winchester’s new Longbeard XR and Varmint-X with Shot-Lok Technology

    http://www.gameandfishmag.com/huntin...r-turkey-load/

    So the question now is when will the new liquid resin be released to the shotshell handloader?
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was released decades ago, under some name we can't identify. Remember all those case sizing lubes which are actually STP oil treatment. It might be the polyester resin used for fibreglass, which is surprisingly brittle without the glass fibres. It might also be possible to roll or spray coat the shot with some kind of wax or lacquer, and form a mass of shot, adhering but with airspaces, in a mould lined with Teflon. Aerosol paints are easy enough to crack or chip when you want them to stay intact. Now that would really be casting for shotguns!

    Brittleness is important. In childhood I remember seeing shotgun cartridges into which some member of my family had poured candlewax, in an effort to make them suitable for big game, to wit German parachutists. There is a long tradition of using similar substances to concentrate the shot. But I remember hearing of experiments, I believe by Sir Gerald Burrard, in which he tried every imaginable substance, and found there was none that wouldn't either be totally ineffective, or risk dispatching the shot in a single massive lump, likely to miss any parachutist, but in the driven-game shooting he mostly knew, capable of abolishing a beater at the distance they normally stopped.

    Greener, though, illustrates an early shot concentrator which was made of copper, and probably ruinously expensive, but could be done more cheaply in plastic. The shot was in two half-oval shells, pinned together through holes at their ends by a single long wire, which was fixed to a solid wad, like a giant thumb-tack. It left the muzzle pinned together, but as air resistance caught the wad, it pulled out the wire, allowing the shells to separate. Unlike solid wax, it seems bound to happen. The benefit wasn't simply in delaying the dispersal of the shot, but in delaying it until the muzzle blast was left behind, and unable to "blow" the pattern.

    I've never even seen a turkey that didn't have an invitation for a Christmas party, but I do know they aren't armour plated, but prefer distant acquaintance. That article on turkey hunting with a riot gun doesn't surprise me. A short barrel, within those limits, makes almost no difference to terminal pressure or velocity. It is under about 15 inches that a barrel is liable to spread the shot wildly. The people who invented the short 4ga blunderbuss knew what they were doing. With a lot of firearms the ability to fire a second aimed shot very quickly is worth more than power. But why what's a little dementia pugilistica when you have one shot and one highwayman?

  2. #82
    I intend no facetiousness, but what about the simplest kind of toffee, which you can make by dissolving sugar in water, and boiling away the water until melted sugar, or very nearly, is what you get? I would want to do it in some kind of mould, as you don't want a primed and charged case around that much heat.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    But why what's a little dementia pugilistica when you have one shot and one highwayman?
    Assuming one shot, one kill! I think I'd rather have a pump or side by! I like the Zombieland rules and especially:

    Rule 4: Doubletap: Carrying a gun is a great idea but it should never be your primary weapon. When you do end up using it for that last-minute ‘oh ****’ moment remember to double tap. If you're attacked by zombies why skimp? One bullet more in the head will go a long way to ensuring your survival.

    This could easily be applied to highwaymen too I think... though a 4 bore with large buckshot would cut a large swath!

    I like the idea of a brittle resin (or toffee) to protect and keep shot together. If it broke up at firing it would be like a better buffer as long as it left the pattern cleanly with little disturbance once out the muzzle.

    I like Cap'n Morgan's disk idea too but maybe if the disks were pressed cornstarch? It apparently forms a plastic like mass when compressed and it is biodegradable!

    Longbow

  4. #84
    It does, but I am afraid I have slipped up. I bought some water-soluble cornstarch plastic granules and some hot melt hide glue on eBay, an excellent source for all manner of non-narcotic substances. But the labels from those identical bags have come off, and my first trial of either is liable to be less than conclusive.

  5. #85
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Perhaps a thin sludge of ordinary gypsum plaster poured around the pellets would work? I have an old Winchester "Slagbuster Boiler Gun" which has served me faithfully as a punt gun for more than thirty years (and has, to put it mildly, seen better days). It would suffice for a test gun with a l o n g lanyard attached.
    Cap'n Morgan

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy
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    Facinating:

    Olin currently holds rights.
    Resin and manufacturer identified.
    Loading method described.
    Pattern testing - shotgun and choke identified.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140290521

    PDF version - Better illustrations:

    https://patentimages.storage.googlea...40290521A1.pdf
    Last edited by RMc; 03-25-2018 at 04:24 PM.

  7. #87
    Very interesting. I'd think that plaster would be a good idea. Just coat the shot in recluses 45/45/10 lube first.

  8. #88
    Boolit Man Rally's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried powder coating buckshot?

  9. #89
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMc View Post
    Facinating:

    Olin currently holds rights.
    Resin and manufacturer identified.
    Loading method described.
    Pattern testing - shotgun and choke identified.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140290521
    Fascinating indeed!

    It looks as if Olin has covered their bases, so to speak:

    "The cartridge according to claim, wherein the projectile size ranges from 0.080 to 0.36″."

    and...

    "The shot or pellets can be made of lead or lead alloy, or other suitable material, including copper, tungsten, bismuth, or steel."

    There's even a trade name for the polyurethane to use: Smash! Plastic®
    Cap'n Morgan

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Morgan View Post
    Fascinating indeed!

    It looks as if Olin has covered their bases, so to speak:

    "The cartridge according to claim, wherein the projectile size ranges from 0.080 to 0.36″."

    and...

    "The shot or pellets can be made of lead or lead alloy, or other suitable material, including copper, tungsten, bismuth, or steel."

    There's even a trade name for the polyurethane to use: Smash! Plastic®
    Also known in the movie industry as: Breakaway Glass Plastic:

    https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/smash/
    Last edited by RMc; 03-25-2018 at 03:58 PM.

  11. #91
    Buckshot is for Bucks:






    Here is a treat for .410 lovers:





    Have fun reading it over a pot of hot coffee, enjoy.

    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 04-23-2018 at 05:35 PM.

  12. #92
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMc View Post
    Also known in the movie industry as: Breakaway Glass Plastic:

    https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/smash/
    Further information on safety precautions when molding Smash Plastic:

    https://www.smooth-on.com/products/smash-plastic/
    Last edited by RMc; 04-26-2018 at 08:46 PM.

  13. #93
    Boolit Buddy
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    Some shotshell related speculation:

    Breakaway Glass Plastic may well be the material from which clear over shot wads are made. Indeed, the action of these clear wads when fired is aptly described: "...the disk crumbles into dust after the load’s initial firing thrust."

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/bp...llcrimping.htm

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/12...uctinfo/COS12/

  14. #94
    The more you read and try to understand Shotgun Ballistics, the better ! !
    Here is more 12 ga Buckshot loading data:


    Here is a good one worth reading Buckshot for the Home Defense Shotgun
    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/c...fense-shotgun/

    Shotgun Ballistics
    http://aegisacademy.com/shotgun-ballistics/

    The Truth About Shotgun Ammo: 6 Questions Answered at Federal's High-Tech Range
    https://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...ut-shogun-ammo

    A Few Words About Buckshot
    https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...about-buckshot

    A lot of good knowledgeable experts right here and can help.

    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 05-06-2018 at 10:25 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBlazingSabots View Post
    Here is more 12 ga Buckshot loading data:


    Ajay Madan
    The pressure tested data above is from page 35 of the 2003 IMR Handloader's Guide.

    Here is the link:

    http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIR..._reloading.pdf

    Source information is always important!
    Last edited by RMc; 05-17-2018 at 02:29 PM.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master

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    Only thing i hate about reloading shotgun is that i never seam to have all the components on hand for a recipe that matches my wads and hulls.
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
    ~Theodore Roosevelt~

  17. #97
    From time to time I find primers lying around my loading bench, here how to identify them.
    Primer identification
    Fed.209A magnum = Silver-Gold
    Fed.209 regular = All Gold
    Fiocchi 616 regular = All Silver
    CCI- 209M magnum = Orangish-Gold

    I would have loved to post a picture along with this but sadly do not have my stuff at my new home, yet. ( Picture give a better idea and less chances of making mistakes )





    Buckshot, "The Hunters Edge"
    https://www.biggamelogic.com/Article...e-Hunters-Edge

    Life is short, Have fun while you are at it !

    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 05-22-2018 at 12:30 PM.

  18. #98
    Greetings, When developing newer loads always use newer Fiocchi hull as they tend to show pressure signs early on for safety and once your load is developed switch over to newer Federal hull for hunting for a smoother action when the golden moment comes for that trophy you don't want the gun to mail function or turn into a single shot Nitro Express ! !

    Pressure is our friend. Higher pressures lead to more consistent, cleaner burning loads.
    ** Roll crimping produces lower pressures due to less resistance from the roll crimp.



    Wise Tip's for Nito Express Slug loader's, Old is still Gold ! !

    " Old is Gold " the old theory still goes, accuracy from a shotgun slug is a function of two things

    1. A good gas seal.

    2. Centering the slug in the bore with a snug fit through out the barrel.

    Achieve those two and you can shoot as well as many big game heavy rifles.

    Since efficiency and accuracy is our prime goal, we need all components to Rhyme with one another and work together hand in hands.

    Saboted Slugs are more aerodynamic, because they are encased in a bore-filling, fall-away plastic sleeve ( the Sabot ) which allows the shotgun to shoot a much more efficient projectile.

    Let's make the right choices:

    1. Choose your components wisely to custom tailor your loads for efficiency!

    2. We need good quality straight walled hulls that are made strong enough to SAAMI
    specification's but will show pressure sign's after a certain pressure level is reached for safety!

    3. Very important to know that certain powders require A Magnum Primer like Alliant Steel for
    example, needs a Fed.209A or CCI.209M!
    Stick with only top name brand primer's that are made to SAAMI specification's like Fed. 209,
    CCI 209, Win. 209 and Fio.616 only for regular primer's for our slug / sabot loads.

    4. Very important, your OP wad must form a good barrier between the powder gases and the
    rest of your wad column, therefore your wad under ideal situation should have longer skirts
    and if your gun has longer forcing cone all the more important for sealing powder gases!

    There goes your load efficiency down the drain:

    5. Let's give it some solid support, add a stronger darker nitro card to transmit the driving forces
    evenly, when ever possible try to incorporate a .250" nitro card in between.

    6. When ever possible try adding a good Felt wad of 1/4, 3/8 or 1/2 inch to help reduce the felt recoil!
    I really love the darker felt fiber wads as they are made well and perform great, but are almost 2 1/2 to 3 time more costlier when compared to the cheaper felt wads from Circle Fly on the right!

    7. Top your Felt wad with a stronger darker nitro card, is like giving it a solid foundation to
    transmit the driving forces evenly and help support the Sabot from below to keep plasma gas
    blow-by from melting the Sabots!

    8. Your Sabots with the proper bullet should be a real tight fit in your rifled barrel and a properly
    designed sabot should not tag along for a free ride piggy back, instead should release the bullet
    immediately and drop off in the first 10 to 25 yard line and not any further!

    **When it comes to smooth bore then your slug in wad needs to be a snug fit enough to require
    6 to 8 lbs pressure to push it through with a wooden dowel and if any more then your pressure's are sure to be high!

    Watch out for your safety comes first!

    9. It is very important that you seat the slug all the way home, use 50 to 60 lbs wad pressure to ensure that.

    10. Try using a harder alloys for casting your slugs for use in Sabots, this way you reduce any chances of distortion at setback when fired allowing the slug to maintain its shape!

    11. A fold crimp will further enhance ignition as the pressures are known to be much higher with fold crimp, you also need a bit less powder this way!

    12. A clean cut rifling will engage the Slug / Sabot far better and impart the required spin for stability in flight for a greater gyroscopic stability that are harder to knock of course, and thus produce massive centrifugal force to help release the bullet instantly from the sabot.

    13. Under ideal hunting situation all you fire is one shot, in some cases may be two the most.
    Does it not make sense to do all your slug testing from a cold barrel and fire two shots to see how well your gun holds the accuracy under ideal hunting situation!
    When testing Slugs or Sabots, three shot group is all you need and pause between shots to let the barrel cool down a bit!

    14. Most loads are more accurate when you tone them down by 2 to 3 gr below Max, and the recoil is easy to digest and won't kick like a mule, that will help you shoot better!

    15. Most Autoloaders and Pump shotguns shoot far better if you tighten the barrel lug all the way then back-off one notch to relieve excess pressure on the barrel. Follow this procedure every time you venture out for a hunt ! !

    16. Polishing your guns forcing cones will definitely help as it has tool marks that the manufacturers failed to polish, its a simple do it yourself project ! !





    By the way that foam came inside the shirts I bought, I put it to good use ! !
    Put it in a hand drill and polish it with the feel, let your 6th sense help you here ! !

    Have the knowledge and exposure to " push the loading envelope" to the Max!

    Knowledge not shared, is knowledge lost!

    **--** My opinions are my own. They carry no 'special' value (except to me of course)
    Above all I really enjoyed writing this post!

    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    www.BlazingSabots.com
    BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
    http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
    http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/ ... wforum.php
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... ot!/page1
    http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=470417
    http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961
    http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/fo...p?f=43&t=39246
    http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!

    PS: The above information is only for my Elite Musketeer Group only so I quietly keep adding more and more to the same post loading it with pure 24 carat Gold,
    I'm not looking to increase my post count, just add more helpful information to help my fellow Brother put meat on the table for pennies a Pop ! !
    **--** You all know who all supported me now its payback time, I'm supporting you.
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 06-09-2018 at 05:24 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check