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Thread: Experimenting with cheap Remington 12ga shells + Lee slugs and buck

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy rbstern's Avatar
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    Experimenting with cheap Remington 12ga shells + Lee slugs and buck

    I recently read a couple of articles about "cut" and slug rounds made from cheap 12ga birdshot shells. Seemed like a fun experiment with potentially useful results, so I thought I'd try my own take and see what could be learned.

    I started with a box of Remington "Game Load" 3 1/4 dram 1oz #7.5 shells. Pretty standard Walmart stuff. I have a Mec press and a Lee 12ga hand loading kit, but I avoided using the shotgun loading tools, to see if these could be made expediently in the field or under adverse conditions. Key to this was not using a traditional crimp, and cutting off the existing crimp. I tried various methods of cutting off the crimped portion of the shell. A simple flush cut saw or sharp knife works well enough, but it was tough to get an even cut all the way around the circumference. A bandsaw worked really well and gave a nice, even cut. The finished shells worked either way, so it's just a question of appearance. With the Remington shells, it's possible to cut just the very top ridge of the crimp, with the crimp folds stills staying in place. This prevents the birdshot from spilling out while you cut. Then, a simple pry with a knife tip pops the folded portion of the crimp out. The birdshot can be poured out and saved for later casting.

    For loading a 1oz Lee slug, the wad in the Remington shell doesn't work. It has vertical ridge lines on the inside face of the wad petals that won't allow the slug to seat. I pulled the wad out and instead use a Win WAA12 wad that has smooth petals. The slug seats into the new wad, and the wad/slug assembly fits snugly into the hull. The new slug round is complete. It's tight enough that no cover is needed. If weatherproofing is a concern, there are a variety of potential solutions (see Buckshot notes below).

    I apologize for the quality of the picture (cell phone). In the picture below, from left to right:

    1) Original shell, unharmed
    2) Shell, cut at the roll crimp
    3) Crimp fold popped off, shot poured out
    4) Completed slug round, with Win WAA12 wad substituted for Rem wad.



    Next up, I experimented with buckshot. The buckshot is from a Lee .310 round ball mold (approximately #0 buckshot). Works for fitting stacks of 3 within the confines of the wad petals.

    Unlike the slug, the buckshot is going to need something to hold it in the shell. The included Remington wad will hold 9 #0 pellets, weighing at around 7/8 oz, but leaving no room for a crimp. That's ok, since I didn't want to use a shot shell tool. Hot glue right atop the buckshot works, as does an overwad card (also with some hot glue). Wax or chewing gum should work fine, in a pinch.

    I tried one variation that I liked a lot: I substituted a short Federal R12 wad for the Rem wad, which left some space at the top of the hull. I made use of the discarded Rem wads by cutting off the bottom of the wad and using it as an overwad for these shells, hot gluing them in place. Made for a neat, finished shell.

    Shown below:

    1) 9 #0 buckshot pellets with the standard Rem wad
    2) 9 #0 buckshot pellets with the R12 wad (note additional space)
    3) R12 wad, 9 pellets, capped with the cut off base of the Rem wad.



    OK, big deal, you say. Get to the important stuff: How do they shoot?

    See the next post.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy rbstern's Avatar
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    Test gun is a High Standard Flight King Deluxe, 22" cut down barrel, open choke, TruGlo ghost ring sights.

    The rounds on the target are cumulutive, so you'll have to look at the details to see what the impact of each additional round is. Again, sorry for cellphone pic quality.

    Five slug rounds, 25 yards, fired from a rest:



    Two more slug rounds, fired at 10 yards, off hand:



    Buckshot load, 25 yards, fired from rest at center mass



    Buckshot load, 10 yards, fired off hand at center mass (note the wad impact right near the X ring)



    Buckshot load, 25 yards, fired from rest at head



    Two more buckshot loads, 10 yards, fired off hand at head (wad impacts in chin/mouth area)




    The shells functioned perfectly through the action of the gun. Slug recoil was similar to the equivalent Remington Game loads, and the buckshot, with 1/8oz less mass, was predictably a bit softer.

    Not breaking any new ground here. Just having some fun and seeing what's possible with some cast lead and a $6 box of shells. In an emergency, I'd have no trouble using these for defensive purposes, and, in the case of the slugs, hunting out to 50 yards or so. I'll try some 75 yard shots next time I load up a batch to see how much more spread there is.
    Last edited by rbstern; 01-10-2012 at 08:34 PM.

  3. #3
    The Brass Man Four-Sixty's Avatar
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    You got a lot better results than I did recently at 25 yards with buckshot.

    Do you buffer your buckshot?

    Assuming your buckshot is cast by you, do you graphite it?

    You can stack 9 pellets in a Remington wad 3X3, really? I understand that it does not crimp though.
    "...journalism may be the greatest plague we face today - as the world becomes more and more complicated and our minds are trained for more and more simplification"
    Nassim Taleb
    'Fooled by Randomness'

  4. #4
    The Brass Man Four-Sixty's Avatar
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    I swear the target in your last picture is smiling at me...
    "...journalism may be the greatest plague we face today - as the world becomes more and more complicated and our minds are trained for more and more simplification"
    Nassim Taleb
    'Fooled by Randomness'

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy rbstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree Rats Must Die! View Post
    You got a lot better results than I did recently at 25 yards with buckshot.

    Do you buffer your buckshot?

    Assuming your buckshot is cast by you, do you graphite it?

    You can stack 9 pellets in a Remington wad 3X3, really? I understand that it does not crimp though.
    No buffer. No graphite. WW pellets with no afer-treatment once they drop from the mold.

    Regarding fit in the Rem wad: These are not 00. They are from a .310 mold.

    I swear the target in your last picture is smiling at me...
    More ventilation needed at your casting bench?

  6. #6
    DEADBEAT UNIQUEDOT's Avatar
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    You got a lot better results than I did recently at 25 yards with buckshot.
    One reason for the decent patterns could be the low velocity. A shotshell really needs a firm consistent crimp to get the operating pressures up to where they need to be, but like the OP said this will work in an emergency. Then again someone used to import slugs for hand loaders and the instructions that came with them said not to use a crimp at all.

  7. #7
    The Brass Man Four-Sixty's Avatar
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    Sometimes after I cast I get headaches...

    You did say you were using 0 buck, my oversight on the stacking question.

    Lower velocity could be the reason for the improved pattern? I will be sure to explore that hypothesis for myself.

    I'll also have to play with my balls nekid (Georgia spelling) to see if it's better.
    "...journalism may be the greatest plague we face today - as the world becomes more and more complicated and our minds are trained for more and more simplification"
    Nassim Taleb
    'Fooled by Randomness'

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub CaptRob's Avatar
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    really cool experiment!

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy rbstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree Rats Must Die! View Post
    You got a lot better results than I did recently at 25 yards with buckshot.

    Do you buffer your buckshot?

    Assuming your buckshot is cast by you, do you graphite it?

    You can stack 9 pellets in a Remington wad 3X3, really? I understand that it does not crimp though.
    Tree Rats, I was thinking about why my patterns might be tighter than yours. I grabbed my calipers and measured the bore diamater of my cut-down High Standard barrel. It was .720", which is equivalent to an improved cylinder choke. That may explain the patterning difference.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNIQUEDOT View Post
    One reason for the decent patterns could be the low velocity. A shotshell really needs a firm consistent crimp to get the operating pressures up to where they need to be, but like the OP said this will work in an emergency. Then again someone used to import slugs for hand loaders and the instructions that came with them said not to use a crimp at all.

    if a rifle can use shotgun powder, with lots of extra space, and it works, why can't a shotgun use a shotgun powder, even without space but no crimp for pressure buildup?

    seems to me there is little difference between the two.

    I'm having trouble thinking around this

  11. #11
    DEADBEAT UNIQUEDOT's Avatar
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    if a rifle can use shotgun powder, with lots of extra space, and it works, why can't a shotgun use a shotgun powder, even without space but no crimp for pressure buildup?
    Well in the metallic cartridge you may have plenty of air space, but the gases are expanding in a much more confined area (quickly) even though there is no air space (usually) in the shotshell it offers a much larger area for expansion. In the metallic case the bullet is bumped up if it's lead rather quickly by the extremely fast burning powders (compared to normal rifle fuel) so whether it's crimped or not it's providing the resistance needed and of course a jacketed bullet offers all the resistance needed without the need for obturation.

    Crimps can affect a shotshell load drastically. Tests prove that crimp depth alone can cause a load to go well over maximum pressure. Component manufacturers all seem to agree that consistent crimps are key to consistent loads, but loads without crimps do work, they just don't work ideally or as cleanly.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    thanks for that UD.

    I guess the expansion ratio is important here.

    and I can see that adding more crimp would slow the expansion chamber enlargement.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy

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    Why would you spend the time cutting off the crimp (ruining the hull) instead of just shooting the shell and reload it with whatever you want to???

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    because he is doing this without reloading equipment. to prove it can be done in an emergency...say all you can get is birdshot...due to laws, disaster or panic.. the hull isnt ruined, just roll crimp a shorter round if needed. those are about the cheapest loaded round you can get..its not like he is ruining much.

    i would have started with the cheap winchesters, they have a better wad and a terrible case to start with, they are ruined for reloading after firing them normally.
    A.F.A.M.

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