Pressure signs in Black Powder ?

[Papa Jack]

I was wondering what kind of pressure signs should I be looking for when shooting Black Powder in this 45-70 C-Sharps ?
Am I going to see swelled up cases, flattened primers ( not always a sign of pressure I realize ) .
I guess what I'm asking is will I see signs of over pressure like when using Smokeless in another rifle or handgun....
I just got to thinkin about that...... Thanks guys ! Papa Jack

[Chicken Thief]

No such thing!

[67bear]

You won't have overpressure with black powder. Just don't load it with 4F. I've loaded 2F and 3F compressed as much as .300". You will want to start load development with a full case of BP, that is with little or no compression of the powder, no airspace in the cartridge, or you may risk ringing your chamber. Continue load development by increasing the powder charge and compressing the powder with a compression die.

[Nobade]

My C. Sharps 1875 has a fairly big chamber and the brass swells up to fit it, but excessive pressure problems are not an issue. The opposite is though, I need to keep my brass annealed so it will seal the chamber and not allow gas to blow back past it.

[Seth Hawkins]

Papa Jack - unlike smokeless powder, you can't get too much BP in a case. There are exceptions. Any of the BP substitutes - like Pyrodex - have to be loaded according to a load table for the cartridge being used, just like smokeless. As long as you use real BP in granulations of 1Fg, 1.5Fg, 2Fg, or 3Fg, you'll be OK. Stay away from 4Fg.

Unlike smokeless powder, YOU CANNOT LEAVE AN AIR GAP IN THE CASE BETWEEN THE POWDER AND THE BULLET. If you do, very bad things can happen. If you want to shoot a load that doesn't fill the case with powder, you will need to find a "filler" to fill the remaining space in the case.

[Don McDowell]

You can't get to much blackpowder in a case to cause pressure problems.
You can get fouling and loss of accuracy from not enough powder, and in the worst scenarios, ring your chamber from not having enough powder in the case.
But there's not going to be any highpressure in a cartridge using real blackpowder.

[felix]

Expect 15K CUP as max you can get with BP using small arm cartridges. Powder burns via granular proximity to each other and that is why full case, with or without compression works as intended. Use primers that burn hottest, BUT with the least force. I have no idea which primers these days since the last runs in 1995. Formulations might or might not have changed since then. ... felix

[Papa Jack]

Thank's Guys !! Thats what I wanted to know..... "PJ"

[Lead pot]

I did some velocity recordings for all the calibers I shoot for my personal records using the Swiss, old Goex and the then newer Goex express when it came out and all the charges were by the same weight that fit the case.
I used 1F, 2F, 3F, and 4F old Goex for the .40 to .50 caliber.
The 100 grains of 4FG in the .50-90 actually had lower velocity then the 3FG did.
I don't think that the finer powder granules let enough room for the nitrate to get an efficient burn and the big orange ball of fire was greater indicating that most of the fine powder acted more like adding to the bullet load weight and burned when it cleared the barrel.

I think the only time you can get into trouble with blk powder is when you duplex. That completely changes the burn and pressure characteristic of the powder.

Lp.

[felix]

True, The give away is the color of the flame. Lack of oxygen in the barrel. ... felix

[Lead pot]

The big ball of Orange was bigger then this

[oldred]

Like everyone has already said you can't get too much powder (Black) in a 45/70 case to cause pressure problems but the question about pressure signs in that particular round is good one because far more of them are loaded with smokeless than black. I f you do use smokeless on occasion be aware that those large head straight walled cases don't always give the usual danger signs before disaster happens and the first sign of trouble could be a blown up rifle! The problem is the thrust from that large head could be a bit more than most rifles designed for this cartridge can handle by the time pressures reach the point of flattened and cratered primers or cases sticking in the chambers. This however is of no concern when shooting BP nor is it a problem with sane smokeless loads, especially the slower powders like Varget.

[Simonpie]

I have always gotten mildly flattened primers. They even smoosh out into a "top hat" shape on the decapped primer where the primer filled the chamfer in the base of the shell. I used to worry about it until I found it did the same thing with 62 grains FFG under a 405 grain .457 bullet (mild compression of powder). I just decided primers weren't a good indicator for me. Also, the brass stayed loose in the chamber and lasts forever. I now shoot 62 grains with a 530 grain bullet at .460" and the primers look the same.

I had drilled out some flash holes (per the Wolf Trapdoor book), but found it made no effect on accuracy or the primer flattening.

Your mileage may vary.

[oldred]

I mostly shoot smokeless in my 45/70s, 55 gr Varget being a full case, and I too get some flattening of the primers even with the pressures being only somewhat higher than BP. When I get the urge for some fun shooting and use "real" powder instead of the new-fangled stuff it seems the primers are about the same even with a bit less pressure. I have a buddy who who shoots very heavy loads using H4198 and 400 grain bullets in his Encore and I honestly can't see much difference in primer or case appearance than my much lighter loads, comparing the primers side by side there is a difference but nothing alarming on the high pressure rounds even with these being max loads for a 45/70 that I personally would never shoot.

[af2fb751]

True, The give away is the color of the flame. Lack of oxygen in the barrel. ... felix

Combustion of black powder doesn't require free or atmospheric oxygen. The oxidizing nitrates in the powder supply all of the oxygen for the burning. The flash can be indicative of powder burning outside of the muzzle. Ideally the burning all takes place inside the barrel.

Several years ago, I saw a demonstration of a Ferguson rifle that was fired about 30 times in a straight sequence. Two things stood out about this that defied what I thought I knew about BP. First is that the burning was clean and second is that the chamber was not full of powder and the ball loaded from the breech did not compress the charges. No issues with ringing etc. Anybody ever see anything like this?

[NickSS]

If you ever shoot a percussion sharps rifle model 1859 or 1863 you will be shooting a gun with air space. This is due to the design of the breach block and the way the rifle is loaded. There is a cavity in the breach block face that is around 3/8 inch deep and the cartridge (paper or linen) seats into the chamber but its rear is at the face of the breach block. Therefore there is air space in the chamber area. Does not seam to cause any problems though and I have fired hundreds of rounds through this type of rifle.

[bigted]

so we have flipped over to a conversation of air space in a blackpowder column correct??? ive always been learned that this is a complete no-no!!! how is this possible ...

oh and by the by...i would love to be in the presents of an origanal ferguson. i learned about these rifles when a kid and just chalked it up to them being so rare that id never see or handle one in a lifetime.

so back to the air space...what is different in these breech loading muzzle type rifles and the cartridge guns we play with?? do you tamp the charge everytime so as to exit the air space or is it somehow determined that such is always ok in these rifles.......im ready for more learnin here...please??

[Lead pot]

In a 63 you use no wads. You either load it with powder wrapped with nitrate paper push it in the chamber and cut off the excess with the breach block. The chamber is just about as full as you can get it if done properly.
Or you push in the ball well into the throat and fill the chamber full of loose powder and again the breach block will push the extra powder off. there is very little air in the chamber doing this.
The lack of the wad reduces the rung chamber problem.

I rung a chamber in the .45-120 using a full case of black powder and it was caused by a hang fire. The only thing I can think happen was and I cant say for sure, is the inside of the case was still wet from cleaning it. I heard a click .........boom.
The primer must have pushed the bullet forward before the powder lite.
And I lost a barrel on a front stuffer when the barrel got fouled and the ball was short seated and I could not pull the ball so I fired it as it was and it ended up with a large walnut.
But getting back to the percussion sharps. I had two and I shot then quite a bit and I think the only way you might have a problem with them is just dropping a ball i with out seating it well into the throat, even that way I dont think that it would cause a problem.

[Don McDowell]

Ted no with muzzleloaders you don't 'tamp" the powder or the ball, the powder is poured in and the ball should be seated to be in "firm" contact with the powder.
Shooting the loose powder sharps is exactly as Leadpot described, done properly theres' precious little airspace. You can tell when the breechblock is getting worn as there will be a whoof of smoke come from the "air leaks".
The major difference between cartridge and cap or flint guns is the cap and flint guns have a vent the gas can escape from , via the nipple of the touch hole. Cartidges unless the cartridge ruptures or the primer pierces the only place for the gas pressure to go is straight out the bore, and when that gas hits a solid object it can ring the chamber , especially in those old soft iron barrels.
The one thing that has always puzzled me tho, is the old Schuetzen cartridge guns, the bullets were often muzzle seated, and the loaded cartridge then inserted with as much as 1/8 inch between the case mouth and the base of the bullet. Maybe the muzzleloaded bullet was already sized to the rifling and free to move , and that's why those chambers didn't ring?

[Lefty SRH]

I don't mean to take this thread for another spin but do the above mentioning of no air space apply to pistol cartridges also? For instance the .45 colt? I've wanted to shoot a few BP loads in my BlackHawk .45 colt but not knowing all the in's and out's of BP loading in a pistol cartridge I hold back.