Lil' Gun, forcing cone erosion, & M92s

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've recently read that Lil' Gun has developed a reputation for eroding forcing cones on revolvers. My Blackhawk definitely shows signs of it.

I was wondering if this problem can translate into lever actions though. The lever guns don't have the cylinder gap letting gases out, but the SAAMI chamber dimensions have a "forcing cone" shaped throat.

Has anyone heard of Lil'Gun causing problems in the .357 lever actions?

[454PB]

I'm a Lil'Gun fan, and use it in all my .454's (three revolvers and a Puma 92 rifle). Yes, I have some erosion of the forcing cones, but I had it before I ever used Lil'Gun. H-110, WW296, and AA#9 all cause some erosion too.

Do a search here and you'll find lots of discussion about erosion, as well as some pictures of mine and others guns.

[stubshaft]

I usually use LG in my 500 S&W Encores there is no indication of any erosion in the throat.

[303Guy]

I don't know about revolvers but Lil'Gun in my hornet is damn powerful stuff. It would heat the barrel something awesome until I upped the charge by a tiny amount and the heating went away. It's weird stuff. But in a revolver I'd have thought it behaved like other powders with no extraordinary velocity gains.

[bobthenailer]

I have used LIL GUN in the 22 hornet , 357 mag , 38 super , 44 mag & mostley in the 454 casull
with great accuracy and in the 22h & 357 mag & 38 super , higher velocity than whats obtainable with other powders within safe pressures.
The only problem ive had with it is in the FA 454 casull after a while i was getting erosion & pitting of the cyl face on 2 guns and one started leading severly out of nowhere ! i tracked it down to a rough bore midway down the barrel . I firelapped the barrel to smoothe it out and its been fine for 2 years now . & have went back to 296 & H110 for full power loads even after i bought a 8 lb keg of lil gun
There was alot of talk on some different fourms & from freedom arms about useing lil gun in the FA 454 casull and ruineing barrels, AND IT IS CONSIDERED TO BE A NO NO IN THER GUNS AT LEAST. i havent seen any bad reports in other calibers though , or experinced any problems in the calibers i load it in.

[felix]

Heat is always the culprit. ... felix

[44man]

I tried it in a nice Freedom .357 and with 12 shots I did not want to touch the barrel. I swear I could solder with it.
It was accurate and fast but is so hot the flame might erode steel. I saved the rest for the .410. My revolvers are worth too much to me.

[Paulinski]

I used it in stout 700gr 500S&W loads.

However I only shot a few of those and I did not notice any significant heat nor forcing cone erosion. My hand can't handle a lot of those

[gasboffer]

I read the report by the owner of Freedom Arms. He stated that they had tested Lil Gun in one of his revolvers and had gas-cutting in just a few rounds. They replaced the barrel and had the same results. I checked my Ruger BH .357 which had probably fifty rounds through it using Lil-Gun, Sure enough! The forcing cone was pretty well shot! Used the rest of the Lil-Gun for fertilizer!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It would heat the barrel something awesome until I upped the charge by a tiny amount and the heating went away.

That is truly weird. Can you post some more details? Was this near max charge and you upped it to maximum? or beyond maximum? How much is a tiny amount?

I first got into reloading about the time Lil' Gun threads first began hitting these boards. As a result it was the first ball magnum powder I went with and never really bothered to try H110.

Do my guns heat up too hot to touch using Lil' Gun? You betcha. But I just thought this was normal from shooting lots. I never thought to compare the heat generated from different magnum loads.

I will have to pay more attention to which loads generate the heat. I've found that 13 grains of Lil' Gun produces 1" groups at 50 yards with a '92 and Lee's 358-158-RF boolit. But that might be the load that gets the guns so hot.

Am I correct in thinking that without the cylinder gap, the heat won't erode much in a lever action because there's not gas blowing by?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The forcing cone was pretty well shot!

How bad does the erosion have to get to totally ruin the barrel/cone? My gun just has the erosion on the edge of the cone. When I pull the cylinder out and put a bullet into the cone, sides of the boolit don't even touch the eroded part. The rest of the cone appears fine.

[mroliver77]

I. The lever guns don't have the cylinder gap letting gases out, but the SAAMI chamber dimensions have a "forcing cone" shaped throat.

Erosion might be a good thing to "soften" the funnel shaped "throat" in these guns! lol

[Char-Gar]

It takes allot of hot gas to cause erosion of forcing cones. If you have it, you are shooting loads way hotter than a person needs for normal shooting. Throttle the loads back, and save your wrists, elbows, hands and forcing cone. Shooting is supposed to be fun and not a puberty test.

If you REALLY NEED some serious smack down when the bullet hits, then load up some full snort stuff and flail away. Don't worry about the toll it takes on your pistol or your body.

I have come to understand that shooting is as much about what is between a fellows ears than it is about what is in his hands.

[44man]

It takes allot of hot gas to cause erosion of forcing cones. If you have it, you are shooting loads way hotter than a person needs for normal shooting. Throttle the loads back, and save your wrists, elbows, hands and forcing cone. Shooting is supposed to be fun and not a puberty test.

If you REALLY NEED some serious smack down when the bullet hits, then load up some full snort stuff and flail away. Don't worry about the toll it takes on your pistol or your body.

I have come to understand that shooting is as much about what is between a fellows ears than it is about what is in his hands.

Not really true. I never use full snort stuff and Lil'Gun loads were at start, not near max, but the stuff burns with a hot flame.
That flame is hotter then the melting point of steel. Of course most powder fire is and the steel transmits the heat away but Lil'Gun has too much.
I compare it to a propane torch verses an oxy torch.
What would you like better, a propane torch down the bore or a welding torch?

[357maximum]

I lengthened and burnt the leade on my 357Max Encore with LilGun. Most of the blame lands on my shoulders but the stuff just burns hot and it also gets funky at upper end loadings. I quit using it in my max because I could only shoot a few shots before the barrel got waaay hot. Anyone that has been to the range with me can attest that I am no slowfire wizard. I needed a powder that could be shot in longer volleys. LilGun is NOT that powder.

[fecmech]

I tried some LilGun in my .357 levers summer before last and it seemed to really heat up the barrels. I normally shoot 15/820/296 behind a 358429 as my magnum load when shooting steel and while the barrel gets warm with extended shooting it doesn't get real hot. After 10 rds of LilGun downrange my barrel felt like I had just fired 10 rds of .308 jacketed rounds, that baby was hot! It didn't do anything better than 296/820 did so that was the end of my LilGun experiment, gave the rest to my buddy who shoots .410.

[Char-Gar]

Not really true. I never use full snort stuff and Lil'Gun loads were at start, not near max, but the stuff burns with a hot flame.
That flame is hotter then the melting point of steel. Of course most powder fire is and the steel transmits the heat away but Lil'Gun has too much.
I compare it to a propane torch verses an oxy torch.
What would you like better, a propane torch down the bore or a welding torch?

I should have been more clear, but I was not thinking ahead to the inevitable challenge which takes place on this board. I was not speaking to the issue of the powder in question, but to general principals and practices. With that said, I will stick by my original post.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It takes allot of hot gas to cause erosion of forcing cones. If you have it, you are shooting loads way hotter than a person needs for normal shooting. Throttle the loads back, and save your wrists, elbows, hands and forcing cone. Shooting is supposed to be fun and not a puberty test.

I was not speaking to the issue of the powder in question, but to general principals and practices.

Since when is a .357 Mag in a 6.5" Blackhawk gonna raise grief with your wrists? I'm not talking hot loading - just max loading.

For what it's worth, I don't shoot a whole lot of Lil'Gun loaded to the max - the vast majority is loaded way down. But one poster here has suggested that increasing the powder dose actually caused things to cool down which I find baffling.

[felix]

Not unreasonable to expect something like that during possible SEE conditions. An extreme velocity spread going nuts for various powder volumes, plus or minus, is one of the tell-tale signs. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Since when is a .357 Mag in a 6.5" Blackhawk gonna raise grief with your wrists? I'm not talking hot loading - just max loading.

For what it's worth, I don't shoot a whole lot of Lil'Gun loaded to the max - the vast majority is loaded way down. But one poster here has suggested that increasing the powder dose actually caused things to cool down which I find baffling.

I don't know how old you are or how long you have shooting, but I will 70 real soon and have been shooting handguns for 50 years. The result is bad arhritis in my hands, bad tendons in the elbows, and zero high frequency hearing. In a recent conversation with John Taffin he in the same shape. We both stick to handguns like the 38 Special and factory level 45 Colt loads. John has had surgery to keep shooting ans uses wrist braces for any heavy six gun loads.

Most senior hand gunners will tell you the same story. It is the repeated shock to the hands and arms that does the damage. Some of us try and warn the younger shooters, but most often the counsel is scoffed at. The old guys just cant know anything of value...or so it would seem