Wc872 in M1 Garand

[tgator]

Have read much about wc 872 in 3006 and much about the pressure curves for the
M1. I get good accuracy in my 03-A3 with a full case and 311284 but I am hesitant
to shoot this load in my M1. Other sources say the gas system is made to handle the
volume of gas that 50gr of powder produces. This is with "J" word projectiles.

Another source implies that 50gr of wc872 with filler is a very good load in the M1 but I don't like the extra cost/steps in the reloading process. Has anybody had experience
with this powder and the M1? My searches have not been productive. Thanks


Tim

[sqlbullet]

I ran three magazines of this powder through my Garand a week ago tomorrow. My load was 59 grains of powder over a CCI 250 magnum primer under a Lee 200 grain boolit, cast from isotope lead and water dropped, gas checked with Hornady checks and lubed with modified Felix lube.

This was strictly a function test and no formal accuracy testing was done. The load ran my Garand (a '43 Winchester mix-master, CMP field grade) with authority. The load revealed a weak clip latch spring that 36 grains of varget does not. The loads felt about like Greek HXP surplus ammo the CMP has been selling. The Greek ammo also dumps the clip around shot 5. (I have a new clip latch spring en route.

According to some quick load data for H870 this load should be making about 10,750 psi at the gas port. This is comfortably close to the military load of IMR 4895, which is estimated by the same software to make 10,587 at the gas port.

While no accuracy testing was done per se, all 24 shots were easily reducing desert rock the size of softballs to small gravel. Most shooting was between 25 and 50 yards as an estimate.

I hope to print some shots on paper on Saturday morning with both this load and a load for my 300 win mag. Assuming I get groups and not patterns, I will be ordering 6 more jugs of this powder from Pats.

As you have mentioned, and as BruceB will be along to reinforce, lead is not copper, and the pressure curves are very different. A 200 grain bullet alone is a violation of the basic Garand rule of 180 grain max, yet the 311299 and 311284 make great boolits for this gun.

As cheap as this powder is, get a schuster gas plug if you are really that concerned about the op-rod. CMP ammo is the cheapest 30-06 ammo for Garand I can find, and 100 rounds runs $50 from them. Reloads with this powder are $13/100. A schuster gas plug is $35.99 from Midway, so your first 100 shots will pay for it.

As for me, I see no issues at all with a normal gas plug and this powder.

[jonk]

I found that 50 grains, while producing good standard deviation around 1950 fps, even with a mag primer and filler left too much unburnt powder. I tried this with a variety of bullets in the 180 to 220 gr range. Accuracy was good but the unburnt powder got in the chamber and jammed things up.

A case full did ignite and burn more or less enough, but I got leading. IIRC, it was running about 2200 fps, which would still be attainable with oven treated bullets and good lube. I choose not to bother.

I'll stick with the Bob S load of 4831.

[madsenshooter]

This was done by parashooter, on jouster. As you can see sqlbullet above is right on, a caseful isn't going to hurt your op rod.

Cartridge : .30-06 Spring.
Bullet : .308, 214, LYM LRN GC 311284
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 23.0 inch or 584.2 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Muzzle Velocity: 2000 fps or 609 m/s

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder.type....Filling/Loading.Ratio..Charge....Charge...Vel..Prop.Burnt. P.max..P.muz
................................%.....Grains....Gr amm...fps.....%.......psi.....psi..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon.H870.................101.7.....59.6.....3. 86....2000....78.3....25746...10749
Hodgdon.Retumbo...............97.5.....55.6.....3. 60....2000....86.5....25776...10590
Hodgdon.US.869...............102.6.....62.0.....4. 02....2000....75.7....27336...10427
Vihtavuori.20N29.............109.5.....66.8.....4. 33....2000....73.0....27690...10427
Accurate.8700................110.6.....64.2.....4. 16....2000....75.8....28449...10202
Ramshot.Magnum.(Big.Boy)......89.5.....54.1.....3. 50....2000....83.7....25936...10188
Alliant.Reloder-25............89.1.....50.3.....3.26....2000....90 .4....25195...10125
Accurate.MAGPRO...............85.6.....51.6.....3. 35....2000....81.2....25730....9955
Vihtavuori.N560...............84.0.....48.7.....3. 15....2000....83.4....25770....9807
Alliant.Reloder-22............84.3.....48.3.....3.13....2000....86 .8....25662....9734
Hodgdon.50BMG................104.9.....60.4.....3. 91....2000....67.4....28584....9733
Winchester.WXR................86.6.....48.6.....3. 15....2000....86.6....25706....9731
Hodgdon.H1000.................94.4.....53.0.....3. 43....2000....83.9....27301....9725
Vihtavuori.24N41..............99.1.....59.9.....3. 88....2000....71.2....28941....9668
IMR.7828.SSC..................83.5.....48.6.....3. 15....2000....84.1....26445....9633
IMR.7828......................88.2.....48.6.....3. 15....2000....84.1....26445....9633
Vihtavuori.N170...............98.4.....55.2.....3. 58....2000....78.8....27708....9478
Accurate.3100.................91.9.....49.3.....3. 20....2000....92.1....26399....9445
Accurate.4350.................80.8.....43.8.....2. 84....2000....94.2....26166....9271
IMR.4831......................84.1.....45.7.....2. 96....2000....92.4....26415....9212
Ramshot.Hunter................74.6.....45.1.....2. 92....2000....91.5....26408....9205
Alliant.Reloder-19............81.0.....45.9.....2.98....2000....87 .9....26923....9196
Hodgdon.H4831.SC..............84.8.....48.6.....3. 15....2000....84.4....27805....9131
Hodgdon.H4831.................88.2.....48.6.....3. 15....2000....84.4....27805....9131
Winchester.760................72.6.....43.5.....2. 82....2000....90.6....26679....9088
Vihtavuori.N165...............87.8.....49.3.....3. 19....2000....89.4....27400....9084
Hodgdon.H4350.................76.7.....43.2.....2. 80....2000....92.2....26509....9082
Vihtavuori.N550...............74.0.....42.9.....2. 78....2000....94.0....26742....9058
Hodgdon.H414..................69.6.....42.1.....2. 73....2000....92.2....27615....8871
IMR.4350......................81.1.....44.0.....2. 85....2000....87.7....28120....8821
Vihtavuori.N160...............87.3.....47.5.....3. 08....2000....87.4....28656....8774
Ramshot.BigGame...............72.9.....41.4.....2. 68....2000....96.0....27036....8740
Hodgdon.H380..................70.9.....41.1.....2. 66....2000....94.7....28199....8657
Hodgdon.BL-C2.................65.3.....40.4.....2.62....2000. ...97.7....27746....8564
Alliant.Reloder-15............68.7.....38.9.....2.52....2000....96 .1....28115....8505
Accurate.4064.................74.4.....39.4.....2. 56....2000....99.7....28143....8352
IMR.4320......................70.5.....39.4.....2. 55....2000....96.6....28254....8304
Winchester.748................62.9.....38.4.....2. 49....2000....98.6....27893....8274
IMR.4895......................68.9.....37.8.....2. 45....2000....98.1....27535....8274
Accurate.2700.................75.1.....44.0.....2. 85....2000....92.0....30496....8265
Accurate.2520.................67.3.....39.3.....2. 55....2000....99.2....28278....8262
Hodgdon.VARGET................71.3.....39.1.....2. 53....2000....96.4....29234....8212
Vihtavuori.N540...............71.4.....40.9.....2. 65....2000....97.5....29941....8175
Vihtavuori.N150...............76.7.....41.0.....2. 66....2000....99.1....29025....8139
IMR.4064......................71.9.....38.5.....2. 49....2000....96.8....29371....8128
Ramshot.TAC...................64.1.....38.1.....2. 47....2000....98.3....29042....8118
Hodgdon.H4895.................70.8.....38.9.....2. 52....2000....99.0....28751....8036
Accurate.2460.................63.7.....38.7.....2. 51....2000....99.1....29523....8027
Vihtavuori.N530...............64.3.....36.7.....2. 38....2000....98.4....29294....8023
Accurate.2495.................69.6.....37.3.....2. 42....2000...100.0....28635....7992
Accurate.2230.................62.8.....38.2.....2. 47....2000....99.1....29868....7901
IMR.3031......................67.9.....36.0.....2. 33....2000...100.0....28027....7884
Hodgdon.H335..................60.5.....37.4.....2. 43....2000....99.7....29319....7871
Vihtavuori.N140...............70.9.....38.7.....2. 51....2000....99.9....29829....7715
Hodgdon.Benchmark.............65.6.....36.6.....2. 37....2000....99.2....31015....7615
Ramshot.X-Terminator..........60.9.....35.7.....2.32....2000 ....99.9....30099....7595
Hodgdon.H322..................63.9.....35.2.....2. 28....2000...100.0....29692....7583
Vihtavuori.N135...............74.2.....38.1.....2. 47....2000...100.0....29569....7578
Alliant.Reloder-12............64.7.....37.4.....2.42....2000...100 .0....30481....7509
Accurate.2200.................59.9.....34.5.....2. 23....2000....99.7....31301....7404
Accurate.2015.................64.7.....35.5.....2. 30....2000...100.0....31364....7182
Alliant.Reloder-10x...........62.9.....33.6.....2.18....2000...100 .0....31434....7095
Vihtavuori.N133...............70.2.....36.4.....2. 36....2000...100.0....32099....7005

[sqlbullet]

Jonk's post just goes to show you have to listen to your gun. 4831 is the powder that leaves unburned crud in my action...lots of it. I have 1.5 lbs left that I am giving to a friend with a 270. Don't get me wrong, I like BobS load, and recommend it if you have the powder on hand. But, I like Varget better if I am going to buy a powder. Reloader 15 works good too.

And I had zero leading with WC872. In fact, that stuff is almost like bore scrubber. Shiniest I have ever seen the bore on that gun. Going to run it next time in my other Garand, which I have never been able to get scrubbed. Hopefully it will shine that one up too.

As seems to always be the case with cast boolits, you gotta try it and see.

[leadman]

That shine may not be the barrel metal. This powder is known to leave a coating in the barrel. Bruce Hodgdon used to recommend Bon Ami cleanser to scrub it out.

I use JB Bore paste in my 7 mag to get it out. After shooting about 50 or so rounds the accuracy will fall off. Cleaning with copper and powder solvents only partially restore the accuracy. After the bore paste everythnig is good again.

I haven't used 872 with cast much and not with cast in the 7mag so don't know if this coating will form at lower pressures or not.

[Char-Gar]

I have fired many 30-06 rounds with a variety of cast bullets over 49/WC872 with excellent results. I used enough PSB on top of the powder to get light compression when the bullet is seated. The amount of PSB varies from .5 to 1.0 cc depending on the weight/length of the bullet.

I have not fired any of these loads in the Garand, but plan to do so.

I have not encountered any coatings in the barrel and clean up is easy. With some loads, in some calibers, this powder can leave unburned powder in the barrel.

[tgator]

I have heard of different fillers used with less than a full case of wc872 but I'm not sure of where
to get PSB or even what it is. I may try coffee grounds or will that attract moisture like COW?

[Char-Gar]

PSB is Precision Spherical Buffer, and is available online from Precision Reloading Inc. You can Google up their website.

I avoid any natural fiber materials for the reason you mentioned.

[s11033]

Hey guys,

Sorry to revive this old post. I picked up 48# of WC872 to take down 4800 6.5 Swede wooden training rounds and reload them into live rounds. I should have roughly 10# left over from that project and would like to use this powder in my 30-06 Garands and possibly even my .308 BM59s. There's some very good info on this thread for cast boolits, but I plan to swage jacketed projectiles (probably in the 168-175gr range) for these rifles. Does anybody have any experience using this powder with slightly lighter jacketed bullets?

I am also open to duplexing if those jacketed projectiles would be too light to create enough pressure to avoid unburned powder.

For eye candy, here's a .308 Garand and a couple BM59s that I built this winter from Sarco parts kits.



Thanks!

Steve

[M-96 Hunter]

I have always read that slow burning powders were not a good idea in M-1s. Said to bend operating rods. Many "experts" say 4895 and 4064 are the best/only powders suitable.

Confused.

[TreeKiller]

I use .5cc of 4895 40g of WC867 or WC872 with enough Shot Gun Buffer to fill the case and 155g or 180g cast. I use this load in all my 30 cal rifles. I have gotten 1.25 group with a 30-40 Kraig offhand for 11 shots. i have not bent the oprod on the M1 but i do have a adjustable gas plug. Started wide open and closed it till got function.

[s11033]

I use .5cc of 4895 40g of WC867 or WC872 with enough Shot Gun Buffer to fill the case and 155g or 180g cast. I use this load in all my 30 cal rifles. I have gotten 1.25 group with a 30-40 Kraig offhand for 11 shots. i have not bent the oprod on the M1 but i do have a adjustable gas plug. Started wide open and closed it till got function.

Thanks a lot for the reply. Can anyone chime in with some thoughts as to how those WC872 loads might work with jacketed bullets of around 175 gr? I know it’s a different animal than cast.

Best,

Steve

[Les Staley]

ASteve, I have been loading 55 gr WC 872 behind a 140 gr jacketed bullet in the 6.5 X 55. My grandson has a 98 Mauser that I built up for him with a new Adams and Bennet F1 bbl. I have a Tikka T3 and a 94 Swede Carbine both in the same caliber. Six or seven whitetails and a nice N. Idaho bull moose are credited to this load. Velocities are running about 2450 with very tight groups, low extreme spreads in all these rifles. It is a compressed load, and I vibrate the case with an electric engraver (held against the case to settle the powder).

[s11033]

ASteve, I have been loading 55 gr WC 872 behind a 140 gr jacketed bullet in the 6.5 X 55. My grandson has a 98 Mauser that I built up for him with a new Adams and Bennet F1 bbl. I have a Tikka T3 and a 94 Swede Carbine both in the same caliber. Six or seven whitetails and a nice N. Idaho bull moose are credited to this load. Velocities are running about 2450 with very tight groups, low extreme spreads in all these rifles. It is a compressed load, and I vibrate the case with an electric engraver (held against the case to settle the powder).

Very cool, thanks a lot for the info! I’m glad to hear it should work nicely.

Have you guys tried it with 30-06 and FMJs? I’d be really interested in coming up with a load that will burn cleanly behind a 175 gr swaged bullet. I feel like a caseful would be okay given the above information for cast bullets, but would like some input on how that would affect port pressure on a Garand.

Thanks!

Steve

[vzerone]

If you are worried about pressure in your Garand you can buy a cheap piece of insurance by buying a Schuster valve from places like Midwayusa. Then you don't have to worry about such things as bending your op rod.

I can tell you that 872 suplus powder burns very hot. I don't think this is a problem in the 30-06, but I knew a fellow that was shooting large does of it in his 264 Win Mag and fire cracked his bore!!

[s11033]

If you are worried about pressure in your Garand you can buy a cheap piece of insurance by buying a Schuster valve from places like Midwayusa. Then you don't have to worry about such things as bending your op rod.

I can tell you that 872 suplus powder burns very hot. I don't think this is a problem in the 30-06, but I knew a fellow that was shooting large does of it in his 264 Win Mag and fire cracked his bore!!

Holy cow, really? I'm starting to load it for 6.5 Swede and have read that it burns cool and is very easy on bores!

I own a Schuster plug for that short little BM59 I built. Just about any rifle powder would be too slow due to the 16" barrel length. I'll just throw that plug onto a 30-06 Garand and see if I can safely close it all the way (so it doesn't vent any gas). If I can then I'll call it good and throw the GI plug back on. Otherwise I'll buy one or two more Schusters.

I shouldn't run into any chamber pressure issues with a lightly compressed 30-06 caseful behind a 168-175 grain FMJ, right? I figure I can get clean burn without using a kicker charge by adjusting the compression of the load.

I'm on the verge of delving into duplexing for .308... But that's a story for another post, haha.

Thanks again,

Steve

[vzerone]

Holy cow, really? I'm starting to load it for 6.5 Swede and have read that it burns cool and is very easy on bores!

I own a Schuster plug for that short little BM59 I built. Just about any rifle powder would be too slow due to the 16" barrel length. I'll just throw that plug onto a 30-06 Garand and see if I can safely close it all the way (so it doesn't vent any gas). If I can then I'll call it good and throw the GI plug back on. Otherwise I'll buy one or two more Schusters.

I shouldn't run into any chamber pressure issues with a lightly compressed 30-06 caseful behind a 168-175 grain FMJ, right? I figure I can get clean burn without using a kicker charge by adjusting the compression of the load.

I'm on the verge of delving into duplexing for .308... But that's a story for another post, haha.

Thanks again,

Steve

I don't think it's much of problem with larger caliber that aren't overbore. Once shooting a Jap with a surplus duplex load i shot five shot and you could fry bacon on the barrel. The rifle was 65 degrees from being it a cool basement. I reloaded five with 4350 and let the rifle set in the basement to get cold again. I shot those and honestly you could put your face on the barrel.

[s11033]

Hey guys,

I finally did some testing in my 30-06 M1 Garand yesterday firing WC872 under surplus 147gr FMJ projectiles. I removed the gas plug for testing purposes and will use an adjustable Schuster plug once I find a load that works. A slightly compressed casefull of 872 yielded 2210 fps. A slightly compressed duplex charge with 1.7 cc of kicker averaged 2310, and a duplex with 3 cc of kicker produced 2330. The kicker was the Swedish wooden blank square flakes, which I am told burn slightly slower than Unique. All loads were quite consistent, with low extreme spreads. There were no pressure signs with any of them. However, all three of these loads left about the same amount of unburned powder in the bore.

Do you guys have any experience with what kind of impact the unburned powder has over time? I don't know if the kernels get pushed out the muzzle with the next shot, or if they get smashed down in the bore. Any experience would be appreciated.

I'm thinking about starting to cast for cost reasons. Would a GC be enough to avoid leading, or should I consider using Hi-Tek coating? Are those of you that use heavier cast projectiles still getting unburned powder in the bore?

Thanks!

Steve

[madsenshooter]

Steve, you're going to need more kicker. I've been shooting 150gr FMJBT out of a Krag using WC860. I have worked up to 5.7gr of 10B101, a flake powder that burns about Blue Dot speed. Since you have the gas system disconnected, you're not seeing what a fine mess unburned powder can make in the Garand! I tried shooting a 88rd match with too little (48gr) H4831SSC. The little yellow kernels were strung all through the action! Had I not taken a chamber brush with me, I wouldn't have been able to finish the match! Any unburnt left in the case drops into the chamber and action when the empty is extracted. I even had that problem with regular ball powders like H414, unless I used either a magnum or CCI#34 primer. Those little balls put dents in the case of subsequently chambered rounds. I imagine the bigger balls of 872 could eventually cause one problems.

I am using 5.7gr of the 10B101, 46.5gr of 860, (52.2gr total) fired with a CCI#34 in my Krag. I imagine I'm getting close to 2700fps with the 150 out of the 30" barrel! I have noted your kicker is a faster powder, you'll have to work on up, I haven't messed with blank powder.

I have not done any work with 860 in the Garand. I do have a McCann gas plug, which has various size jets. When I was shooting some hot 150s loaded with a caseful of RL19, I got function with the third jet down from the largest. Maybe someday I'll get around to some 190gr cast bullets with a boosted caseful of 860, but I don't get out much anymore.

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation...m=1519839818/0