The 44 Associates

[Matt_G]

Thanks for posting that information Steve.
I totally missed that "several score" statement.
Didn't read carefully enough!

Item 2: Our own Zac0419 took an online article by Ross Seyfried on the Lipsey Ruger Flattop and made a pdf file of it.
I have uploaded that pdf file to the server.
Dale53 had reminded me of that article a while back by giving me a link, but I kind of forgot about it and didn't follow through.

Item 3: If anyone has trouble getting the pdf files to show properly in your browser, try right clicking the link and clicking "save link as" or "save target as" and then saving the file to your local hard drive and opening it from there.

[Von Dingo]

Mattg,

Thanks for doing this, been watching it for awhile, good stuff! Thank you

stbryson,

Did you notice that the Bob Nichols booklet is dated on, or a day after depending on how you view the datline, VJ day?

[stbryson]

Hello,

44 Associates "Declaration of Principles":



Take care,

Steve Bryson

[Matt_G]

Bumping this thread in the hopes that newer members not only will enjoy the data but may also be able to contribute.

[jrmartin1964]

I posted the only pages of any historical interest over at the S&W site and Matt now has them on his site.

Personally, I would find ALL the pages historically interesting. I, of course, fully understand the data held within those pages is horribly outdated and should not be relied upon today for handloading purposes, but I can't be the only one who would find their contents of interest - an insight into the trials and experimentations of those who walked before us - and eagerly await the day when a complete copy of the 44 Associates' data is digitally preserved and made available for study.

[Outpost75]

I met Eric Farr when I was working at Ruger in the mid-1980s and visited him at his home in Greenville,TN. He had an indoor 25 yard tunnel in his basement and a well equipped shop. He was an advocate of machining bullet bases absolutely square using a fixture with a Wilson case trimmer, protecting bases of plainbased bullets with TiO2, fitting bullets precisely to cylinder throats, using a straight-line Wilson type bullet seater and what we now call Taylor throating. His loads would shoot 2" ten-shot groups at 100 yards from the Ruger SBH revolvers we prepped, firing from a machine rest.

Another member of the .44 Associates Eric introduced me to was Don Tag, who at the time headed the tank gun section at CSTA, Aberdeen Proving Ground. Don and I worked on some interesting projects, but all in 120mm ammunition.

[Forrest r]

I met Eric Farr when I was working at Ruger in the mid-1980s and visited him at his home in Greenville,TN. He had an indoor 25 yard tunnel in his basement and a well equipped shop. He was an advocate of machining bullet bases absolutely square using a fixture with a Wilson case trimmer, protecting bases of plainbased bullets with TiO2, fitting bullets precisely to cylinder throats, using a straight-line Wilson type bullet seater and what we now call Taylor throating. His loads would shoot 2" ten-shot groups at 100 yards from the Ruger SBH revolvers we prepped, firing from a machine rest.

Perhaps he should quit playing around with the bullet bases.

Another member of the .44 Associates Eric introduced me to was Don Tag, who at the time headed the tank gun section at CSTA, Aberdeen Proving Ground. Don and I worked on some interesting projects, but all in 120mm ammunition.

Our very own 44man can shoot 1" groups @ 100yds all day long with a 357. Shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds with a 44mag standing/offhand. And shoot 2 1/2" groups at 500yds with a 44mag laying down.

That poor guy went thru all that trouble and special reloading equipment only to get 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest. What's wrong with this picture???

[Outpost75]

Our very own 44man can shoot 1" groups @ 100yds all day long with a 357. Shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds with a 44mag standing/offhand. And shoot 2 1/2" groups at 500yds with a 44mag laying down.

That poor guy went thru all that trouble and special reloading equipment only to get 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest. What's wrong with this picture???

Erik did it on demand over long, continuous strings of fire in front of witnesses, without excluding any data.

[Forrest r]

Erik did it on demand over long, continuous strings of fire in front of witnesses, without excluding any data.

I have no doubt someone with that skill set has the ability to do exactly what you posted. I'm just surprised that someone with all that knowledge and equipment is only getting 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest when there's people like 44man posting he shoots 2 1/2" groups @ 500yds lay on his back????

[frank505]

Kent Lamont was getting one inch groups at a hundred yards from 8 3/8s model 29s that were scoped. And did it with the Keith bullet. I believe this was written in Handloader Digest.

[Dale53]

Kent Lamont was the real deal. He used to set up at the Indianapolis Gun show. I talked to him on several occasions. He was a very knowledgeable shooter and reloader.


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[35remington]

Proving super accuracy as an average representative of what the gun will really do is easy. Put multiple small groups on the same piece of paper so it looks like it was done intentionally, one small group after another, and have witnesses sign it.

One little group on separate pieces of paper looks like one is cherry picking the best groups and ignoring all the other groups that don't look so good. Which is what is probably happening.

Proving super accuracy is so easy that no one does it in a believable way. Which pretty much confirms that super accuracy claims usually are not believed, and that super accuracy really isn't that easy or as common as the claims suggest.

[Outpost75]

I have no doubt someone with that skill set has the ability to do exactly what you posted. I'm just surprised that someone with all that knowledge and equipment is only getting 2" groups @ 100yds with a machine rest when there's people like 44man posting he shoots 2 1/2" groups @ 500yds lay on his back????

Laser designators and precision-guided munitions hadn't been invented yet.

[Dale53]

Me, I have been happy with keeping most of my shots on a playing card at 100 yards off a rest with my scoped .44 magnum revolvers.


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[HP9MM]

What about those "duplex" and "triplex" loads! Anyone want to try those or even one of those and report back on its performance?

[shoot-n-lead]

What about those "duplex" and "triplex" loads! Anyone want to try those or even one of those and report back on its performance?

You go ahead and try them, check back with us on the results.

I quit diddling in canoe, years ago.

[35remington]

Dale, that is good shooting.

[Dale53]

Thanks for the kind words, .35!


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[Piedmont]

Outpost75, What bullet shape did Mr. Farr find shot best at 100 yards? Did he prefer something else at 25 yards, or did he just stick to one for all ranges?

[Outpost75]

Outpost75, What bullet shape did Mr. Farr find shot best at 100 yards? Did he prefer something else at 25 yards, or did he just stick to one for all ranges?

He used San Diego H&G original Keith similar to #429421 cast 1:20 tin-lead pretty much across the board. Did NOT like "hard" bullets. Sized bullets nose first in reloading press in home made die similar to Lee push-through, used straight-line Wilson type seater in arbor press, neck turned cases with uniformed flash holes and primer pockets, Remington primers, faced bullet bases protected with TiO2, own lube blend of beeswax and STP, IMR4227 powder to fill case giving base support for bullet with 1/8" compression as if loading black powder, no wad, added "booster" of 3Fg Goex under the 4227, about 5% of charge.