4227 question

[kelbro]

I have read that H4227 and IMR4227 are now the same. I have a jug of H4227 that I used for 25-20 and when it started getting low, I picked up a jug of IMR4227.

These are definitely NOT the same. The H4227 is more of a tan/green powder and the IMR4227 is the typical charcoal grey color.

What color is the current 4227?

I'm working up some loads and want to use the most current version.

[wiljen]

Hodgdon in its infinite wisdom when it figured out IMR-4227 outsold H4227 promptly renamed H4227 to the IMR name and dropped the original IMR powder so it is a bit confusing.

Basically H4227 has always been an ADI powder (2205 if memory serves) and now IMR is too.

The current IMR offering should look no different than the H4227 that preceded it but Hodgdon specifically had ADI darken the color of 2205 so it would match the older offerings so even color doesnt tell you much. You can have lots of the powder in 3 different colors with 3 different labels and all be exactly the same stuff.

[frnkeore]

This has been a point of contention with me for a while now. I don't know where Wiljen has gotten his info but, there are guys on this forum that defend Hodgdon on this and have said that they call Hodgdon about it. According to him, H4227 was dropped but, I still don't think so. Do a search for this old thread.

I've always liked Hodgdon until resently. They need to come clean with what they done and make a official, truthful statement about it!!! As well as 296 and 760 powders.

For me, I've stopped buying new 4227 and pick up what I can find at gun shows in the Dupount and IMR steel cans and since a few months ago, I've found and bought 9 cans of REAL 4227 so, I'm set for a few years with what I had left.

Frank

[jimkim]

I still have two pounds of vintage IMR-4227. IDK what I'm going to do when I run out. If I wanted H4227, I'd buy H4227. I'm also trying to figure out what's up with the IMR-4198. I heard the same thing about it.

[Rocky Raab]

I have no idea what we might mean by "come clean." Hodgdon has dropped their version of 4227 in favor of the IMR version. H4227 is not listed on their website or in their product lineup. IMR 4227 is still listed in the IMR lineup.

Where's the confusion?

[bearmn56]

The Hogdgon's current data shows that both use the same loading data. HOWEVER!!! I have some H4227 and this is an Austrailian made powder and is of the "EXTREME" type and is greenish, as one other poster mentioned. The new powder distributed now by Hogdgons is IMR 4227 is NOT the Extreme powder and has a different darker grey appearance. I live here in Montana and often load handgun bear stopper loads and liked the H4227 because it is virtually insensitive to the extreme cold here. NOT SO the IMR4227. I sure wish that Hogdgons would reintroduce the Australian made H4227 Extreme.
So, even though they have virtually the same burning rate, their temperature response characteristics and appearance are different.
To Hogdgon's credit, I am sure that they thought this through carefully and decided that the IMR version was more popular than their H version.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[frnkeore]

So tell me, did IMR of Canada move it's powder production the Australia?




Frank

[wiljen]

Nope, ADI is making the powder for Hodgdon in Austrailia.

Frank's canisters prove exactly what I had said to begin with.

Hodgdon dropped IMR Canada and had ADI recolor 2205 to look more familiar to IMR customers.

[blaser.306]

The two do not shoot the same! Even the report from the two are distinctly different not to mention very different points of impact.

[35remington]

As the guy who originally called "foul" here on Hodgdon's relabeling of H4227 (some time ago I asked for a clarification from our Australian friends on this board and got it; this is a matter of record) and calling it IMR 4227, a few things stood out.

First, the MSDS on the Hodgdon website for both IMR 4227 and H4227 is the same as the ADI powder. We had a link to it in the mentioned thread above. Source: Australia for all.

I bought a very recent can of IMR 4227. It says "Made in Australia" and is of a different lot than my last can that said "Made in Australia."

This only makes sense. Why would Hodgdon drop an existing powder sourced from ADI that was essentially the same thing, and already supposedly temperature insensitive as a further benefit, and replace it with IMR's offering?

Why source all the rest of the IMR series differently than this one? Because a duplicate was already present.

[35remington]

bearmn, buy the IMR 4227 if you liked H4227. It's really H4227.

A further comment.

I've recently purchased both IMR 3031 and IMR 4320, two favorites of mine.

Both still say "made in Canada" in the new plastic containers. New lot number dating.

Now, why would Hodgdon let the other IMR powders continue to be produced in Canada, yet, inexplicably, allow just IMR 4227 to be made by the Australians? Why shift the country of production when the existing Canadian plant was perfectly capable of making it just as they had for so many years?

They wouldn't shift only this particular powder's country of origin unless the Australians were already making it as the former H4227. H4227 has been retained. IMR 4227 has been dropped.

[35remington]

Here's the other thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...27+HOdgdon+IMR

And another:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...IMR+4227+H4227

[skeet1]

I guess the next question is what about 4198, 4895, 4350, 4831? are they still made in Canada or are they also going to be merged into one powder in two different cans? It seem to me that it would make good business sense.

Ken

[frnkeore]

"Why source all the rest of the IMR series differently than this one? Because a duplicate was already present."

By that rational, Varget could easily replace both 4895 and 4064. The size is much different between V and 4064 but, I bet you could just re-color 4895 and I doubt many would know.

I just checked the V and 4895 and visually they look the same other than color.

Can we look forward to SC 4064?

Frank

[felix]

Question: does a powder number mean application-range specific, or does it mean chemically specific. That depends on the chemical and for what purpose. For example, lab grade versus agriculture grade versus drug grade. The gross application targets have their definite reasons for their respective chemical grading system. In the gun business it seems the marketing folks get involved far too much with the result in making gun powder a cheap commodity. The only way for us to come out ahead mentally is to choose a powder that is close enough to what we expect for a narrow application, buy tons of it, and to make it work in our choice of calibers for a particular sport. The sport might be groups in 20 below weather, or taking deer in the Sahara desert. The next fellow might be more realistic, and that is what the marketing departments shoot for in their gun powder lineup. I just bought a new supply of Oxycodone (pain drug) and it is twice as powerful than the last batch from a different vendor. Guess what. The pills are both marked 5mg of active drug. Not only are the manufacturers different, but obviously the total chemical mixtures are different as well. I give up. Brave new world we live in. Profits above all else. .... felix

[frnkeore]

"Brave new world we live in. Profits above all else. .... felix"

Yes, that is the thyme in far to many area's of the USA in general. It seems to be rearing it's head quite a bit on this forum lately, too.

I've never looked at stocking powder before and 4227 is the first I done of it (gun show stock) but, it won't be the last. Not out of hoarding but, just to have the powder that I want to use.

Frank

[felix]

Frank, hopefully you don't run out of it before you loose interest in your particular application(s). In a way, that is subconscious hording. In the case of money, you never have enough, right? Some of us alibi it by believing we will pass it down to our brethren. That thought is so prevalent that we loose faith in our brethren's ability to fend for themselves with the assumption they cannot exist without us. Such a paradox. Children do not want our fortune, but their own subconsciously (again) which is never daddy's unless by chance. ... felix

[wiljen]

When Hodgdon bought IMR, they may have contracted to use all of the existing lots of powder before switching or altering any of IMRs branding. If IMR Canada had low or no supply of 4227, it simply had the new lot made elsewhere. I see no reason to believe that trend won't continue as existing supplies of IMR Canada's powders dry up.

[Rocky Raab]

My memory may have failed me, but that's the first I've heard about IMR4227 now being made in Australia. The can label pictured above is clear, however. So I am forced to retract my comments above and report equal confusion.

The "why" of such a decision is up for honest debate, but the fact of it seems to be irrefutable.

[singleshot]

I had and liked H4227, couldn't find it, so I bought IMR4227. Now the reloading books printed by Hodgdon have the exact same load data for both, but I got slightly different results from each. So...to provide myself with consistency with the two different lots, or powders, or whatever I had, I simply mixed the two until the mixture was consistent and worked up loads for the "new" lot. (Yes, I know, you're never supposed to mix powders...)

Anyway, now I'm satisfied with the temperature sensativity in all the loads I've worked up, but not sure what I'll do when this "unavailable" powder I have dries up. My 327 fed, 44 mag, and 35 rem all like this blend in both hot and cold temps.

All that being said, even thought the powders LOOK different, they act more like they are different lots of the same powder...

I guess in the end, I may end up abandoning 4227 for 2400 or something else