Accuracy -Marlin v Winchester

[Chill Wills]

OK, I am somewhat surprised at this Winchester versus Marlin competition! But, as long as it is friendly it is a great way to get the information flowing. So, for years My Winchesters have been giving me about 3moa accuracy more or less and the one and only Marlin I had (15-20 years ago) was sooooo bad, even after returning it and it still not being fixed, … I sold it.

Here is the challenge. Post your everyday average 7 shot group. (or 2 five shot groups) 100yds and we will see what you Lever Rifle BR masters can do. Cast only of course! Gentlemen’s Honor and Gentlemen’s banter only.

I was out the other day checking to see what I could expect from an old Lyman 457-124 and 58gr FFFg Swiss powder. The one target shot with this load is posted here. It is 2-3/4” That is about normal for black or smokeless loads for this Winchester 1886 45-70 Govt. Rifle

[stubshaft]

I love my Winnies especially since my very first hunting rifle was a 30/30 Mdl 64. I have shot hundreds of piggies, goats and feral sheep with my old mdl 94 in the same caliber. But for all out accuracy my 1895 Marlins beat them hands down, even my 1894C will give my 64 a run for the money. So much so that I only reach for the Winnies 1 out of 10 times nowadays and out of my Marlins my blued GG gets the nod more times than not.

[Chill Wills]

subshaft, Would you show us or at least tell us about the groups your great shooting Marlin? size man, Size.....

[Char-Gar]

Chill Wills.. Over many years of shooting Marlin and Winchester leverguns I have found that CONSISTENT ON DEMAND 2 moa groups are about the best I can do with the Marlin. Winchesters will do about a 1/2 moa less.

Please bear in mind, I have a stack of bragging one hole targets like the next fellow, but I am talking about average, consistent, on demand accuracy of 5 shoot groups.

[stubshaft]

These were shot with my 1895SS w/MG rifling using the 405 RCBS and LBT Blue lube sized to .460" in a die that Buckshot made for me. All groups were 5 shots at 100 yds with a 3X Weaver that I used only for load development (I don't like scopes on my lever guns for hunting).

[btroj]

I don't think a compairison of a few rifles can give a true picture of which is more or less accurate on average.
Either one is capable of doing what they were designed for- killing deer at reasonable ranges.

[PacMan]

I wish i had a scope on my 1894 now just to see. I shot this five shot 37 yard group with a scope for load work then removed it and mounted my XS sights. The 37 yard distance is because a big oak fell across the make shift range and i have yet to get it completely cut up.

With the XS sights i can wear out a quart oil bottle at 200 yards if i do my part but i also have a Rossi in 454 that will do the same using 335gr LBT LFN bullets.

[Chill Wills]

Stubshaft, OK, Hats off to you! That is very good accuracy!

You must get some looks of envy from the concrete commandos with the 3,000 powder scope and Tactical rifle.

[Chill Wills]

dwight hardy, If that holds together to 100y or more I would say it might be 2 moa or less!

[Larry Gibson]

Shot with the M94AE pictured in above post. 100 yards, 7 shots, velocity is 2220 fps. Bullet alloy is WW+2% tin/lead at 50/50. This is the soft cast bullets where I recommend cleaning the barrel after 5 -7 rounds to maintain accuracy. The 1st five shots are in 1.25" with shots 6 & 7 opening the group to 1.78". Close enough for deer to 200 yards

Larry Gibson

[Chill Wills]

I don't think a compairison of a few rifles can give a true picture of which is more or less accurate on average.
Either one is capable of doing what they were designed for- killing deer at reasonable ranges.

BTROJ Really, I did not intend to prove one brand over the other. Nothing of the kind. We are just going to have some fun and maybe we (me) will learn something.
I'll bet even a crusty old goat like me who has been doing this cast bullet thing a good while will learn a few things from some new guy that can put them all in one hole.
The trouble with doing something so long is I forget to think about new ways.... so that is why I like to draw on other peoples experiences as well.

I hope I don’t sound too arrogant. Just hoping to have fun with this.

All the best.

[btroj]

A friendly competition I can agree with. I jut don't want this to turn into a Ford/Chevy argument.

I don't have a Winchester in my home so I can't speak to them. My Marlin 45-70 will shoot 1.5 to 2 inch groups for 5 shots at 100 often enough that I get frustrated by a 2.5 inch group from it.

I have never scoped my 32-20 or 30-30 to really see what they can do. 32-20 is an accurate rifle, I just don't think it would be very good in much wind.

I think we can all agree that lever actions are much more capable than many give them credit for.

[Canuck Bob]

There is quite a difference between some chamber throats in typical Marlin and Winchesters, I have studied 30-30, and 32 Special. A visit to the SAAMI site will show the Winchester style chamber/throat diagram that is in my 32-20 and 32 Special Winchesters.

Chambers that are at least .040 longer than cases with sharp 15 degree curb like leade. My factory 32 Special factory loads have a substantial jump into that abrupt leade with iffy initial bullet alignment.

Ranch Dog Outdoors, link above in header, shows the similar rifles as having different throated chambers. His 32 Special drawing shows an actual ball throat with a properly sized bullet filling a real throat and engaging a 3 degree leade.

30-30 drawing is similar with the Sammi chamber. Reports indicate that some Marlins are ball throated in 30-30. His 444 drawings reveal a couple different throats in Marlins, What do Marlin barrel sluggers say? I often wonder if the great results for Ranch Dog casts come from thier design to suit RD bullets.

I am now convinced that some of the reported accuracy limits for both these rifle comes from these wanky throats and the barrel band restrictions causing problems/

On his GB forum Veral Smith states he thinks MG barrels are excellent for cast when sized correctly. He claims the many more rifling edges and small land height don't distort bullets as much. I do not present this as fact but just info with some pertinence to this thread

[Lloyd Smale]

In pistol calibers ive allways had better luck with winchesters. Rilfes are about a toss up if your comparing micro groved guns to winchesters. the cut rifle marlins tend to be a little bit better especialy the old ones. Ive got an old 336adl in 3030 that will shoot moa and ive had another in 3030 and one in 35 rem that would also.

[Reload3006]

Ford Chevy Dodge Chrysler ... take your pick. they are all fine tools and will do their job if you do yours.

[Chill Wills]

In pistol calibers ive allways had better luck with winchesters. Ive got an old 336adl in 3030 that will shoot moa and ive had another in 3030 and one in 35 rem that would also.

Sure, everyone has a moa rifle/load. I hear that all the time!
Got pictures?

[HPT]

10 shots in 2.5" @ 100yds
Oliver F. Winchester
Peep sights
38-55 cal
250 gr Lee
42 gr Goex
.060 LDPE wad
1225 FPS

[Canuck Bob]

Its fun to discuss and imagine but I am very lucky to own both rifle types and would not part with my Marlin or two Winchesters. As a compulsive tinkerer I'm well suited to reloading, shooting, and over analyzing!

I gave up on moa scoped bolt guns years ago because I never found any corelation between the precision and hunting success for me. For my needs a sound lever action handles so well I feel most other guns feel clunky when shouldered.

Maybe a better question is what is good accuracy. My rifles will do 3" at 100 yards with a peep sight and just about any decent load or factory ammo. All three will do better with a little tweaking and tuning. I'm the limiting factor. My current goal for accuracy is to train to the point that my 100 yard supported and offhand groups are the same. A very tough goal indeed for me!

My belief is that any gun marksman combo who can always lay down 3" groups exactly were aimed at 100 yards offhand is a fine rifleman or riflewoman. For some weird reason I believe that the peep sighted Marlin or Winchester is the prefered rifle for this standard and not a lesser choice. Savage levers are superb guns to, I just prefer the exposed hammer on my hunting rifles.

[cajun shooter]

I'm not trying to be a person who thinks that they know everything there is to about guns. I have how ever been involved with them in a professional setting in both the military and in law enforcement in my life time.
I was trained as a sniper and a Firearms Instructor by attending Schools that were put on by the FBI. I also attended Armorer schools at S&W, Sig Sauer, Ruger, Remington and others.
Using this training and my experience in the shooting sports you "CAN NOT SAY NOR PROVE ONE GUN TO BE BETTER OVER A FORUM!!
This would require many side by side firings by one or more persons firing many different brands of both factory and hand loads. Then this test would only show the difference between the two rifles tested and not any others that came off the line before or after them.
It is no different than the old Ford VS Chevrolet disputes. It makes for conversation
but proves nothing. Later David

[Chill Wills]

cajun shooter,
You might be misunderstanding. My challenge to all who would Play was not to prove which brand was always more accurate, There for best. Not at all!

It was to draw out what real riflemen have done and can do with their chosen rifle.
Also, Did I mention have some fun!?

The Pictures are just a way of getting a little closer to fact than typing "I can shoot into 1/2 inch any time I chose.......trust me"

No body is trying to Prove much here. Not me anyway.

And....................Did I mention this is just for fun?