Was Re-Loading In The Past Deadlier?

[UtopiaTexasG19]

Does anyone have any factual information about how re-loading was done prior to the 1920's by individuals? Were there kits like the Lee Handload set up and what was used for scales? Did folks, farmers and those who lived in very rural areas, load their own, or was something like the old Sears catalog used for buying bullets? I am just curious as to the methods used way, way back to re-load. Thanks...

[cbrick]

Google the book "The Complete Guide To Handloading" by Philip Sharpe. There is great detail on this and much more. Written in the 1920's in many respects it is still the gold standard.

Rick

[Rocky Raab]

Lyman made hand tools back then. Loading tools, moulds and components were popular among buffalo hunters.

Lots of other companies were making reloading tools, most of which are long gone. Lachmiller, Texan, and Ideal are examples. There were many more.

[Jim]

Google the book "The Complete Guide To Handloading" by Philip Sharpe. There is great detail on this and much more. Written in the 1920's in many respects it is still the gold standard.

Rick

I have the Third Edtion(1953) of that on my shelf. WONDERFUL book!

[Bret4207]

Also look for Ned Roberts books, Earl Naramores even Keiths early writings. Many of the scheutzen riflemen of the day wrote for the old "Shooting and Fishing", "Outing" and other periodicals of the day describing their practices. One of the common ideas I see repeated time after time is for reloaders to go to their druggist to have charges weighed out. Then the reloader would cut a scoop to fit that powder charge. Also remember that black powder was in regular use into the 30's anyway and that was (and is) loaded by volume, not weight, so measurement was simpler. Primers were available and re-priming hasn't changed much. Nutcracker style tools were used and resizing dies similar to Lees hand dies could be made up on order or by a talented local mechanic.

It really wasn't that different than now, just took a little longer to get the "stuff" and find the info.

[Mk42gunner]

Funny you should mention the Sears catalog; I have a reprint of the 1902 (IIRC) catalog. It has quite a gun and reloading section in it. Remington No 2 Rolling Blocks cost $7.50. Wish I could find one for that price now.

Winchester and Marlin also made tong type loading tools in the 1800's. You still see Winchester molds occassionally, they look like decent molds to me; unfortunaely someone else has always wanted them worse than I did when I have seen them at auctions.

Sharps sold reloading gear to go along with their rifles.

I have to believe that shotgun loading was common, given the number of roll crimping tools I have seen in second hand shops and flea markets, usually mis-identified.

Robert

[uscra112]

As soon as there were brass cases, there was reloading. The earliest cases had no primer, just a small hole where the flame from a percussion cap could enter to ignite the (black) powder. Civil War Maynards worked this way. Those cases were almost always reloaded, unless they were lost in battle. (See "A guide to the Maynard Breechloader" by George Layton.) Some early Ballards could fire rimfire cartridges, but with a quick switch on the breechblock, a cap could be fired. The reloader poked a hole in the used rimfire case with a nail, reloaded it with black, and reverted to the percussion cap.

Then came smokeless, and in the early days there was great trouble with people loading smokeless like they did black, (i.e. fill the case up and seat a boolit). Even after "bulk smokeless" appeared, this misunderstanding must have blown up quite a few guns, (and reloaders).

Bulk smokeless was therefor invented for the shotshell reloader, who knew how to ladle out his powder by the "dram", but had no scale, other than what he weighed his grain and hogs on, and that was rarely accurate even to the pound, never mind grains. The "dram" measure concept survives today, just look at any box of new shot-shells.

It took quite a while for precision powder-measuring to catch on.

Go on eBay and you will find reprints of the old Ideal reloading handbooks going back into the 19th century for sale. Abby at Cornell Publications has done an incredible job of collecting, cataloging, reprinting stuff from that era.

Here's one URL:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-1900-H...item43ab681561

[floodgate]

For the pre-1900 stuff, go to Chamberlain & Quigley's "Cartridge Reloading Tools of the Past", available from Tom Quigley, PO Box 1567, Castle Rock, WA 98611 (e-mail: tlqmlq@q.com) for $27 postpaid. If you search on "310 Tools" or "Lyman 310" or "Tong Tools" on this CastBoolits website, you'll also turn up a lot of historical and operational information.

In those days, anywhere away from civilization, you HAD to reload, and some of those old tools work just fine today - if slowly.

floodgate

[geargnasher]

Also look for Ned Roberts books, Earl Naramores even Keiths early writings. Many of the scheutzen riflemen of the day wrote for the old "Shooting and Fishing", "Outing" and other periodicals of the day describing their practices. One of the common ideas I see repeated time after time is for reloaders to go to their druggist to have charges weighed out. Then the reloader would cut a scoop to fit that powder charge. Also remember that black powder was in regular use into the 30's anyway and that was (and is) loaded by volume, not weight, so measurement was simpler. Primers were available and re-priming hasn't changed much. Nutcracker style tools were used and resizing dies similar to Lees hand dies could be made up on order or by a talented local mechanic.

It really wasn't that different than now, just took a little longer to get the "stuff" and find the info.

When I was a starving engineering student with a shooting addiction, I sourced the chemistry department's precision scales during lab sessions to calibrate my dippers made from filed-down cartridge cases with heavy copper wire soldered to them for handles. Once I had 2.8 and 3.0 grains of Bullseye established in 9mm case dippers, I was good to go reloading for my .38 in my tiny travel trailer without need for a scale of my own. I think my minimalist casting and loading methods of the time mirrored those of a hundred years ago, for much the same reasons. I was careful, had good load data, and never had a single safety issue with my ammo.

Gear

[W.R.Buchanan]

It's already been covered but as long as there has been brass cartridges, they've been reloading them. If you lived away from a town you pretty much had to.

I have seen old movies were the cowboys were reloading cartridges with BP and using a case to measure the powder, and since they lived in the desert in New Mexico 130 years ago it was a long ride to Santa Fe.

I started reloading when I was in the AF in Texas in 1971. I had a Lee Loader,,, AND a Redding Scale.

In other words, I was about one click above what they were doing in 1880! They didn't have plastic mallets!

People don't seem to realize that those tools still work just as good as they did 150 years ago, and so do Flintlocks!

Of course we have a lot of better stuff to use today, but if push came to shove and you had to survive for a long time and had no resources other than what you could scrounge, would you rather have an Electronic Ray Gun, or a Flintlock and a bullet mould? You can make BP with what is available on the ground, you'd be hard pressed to make a Power Cell for a dead Ray Gun.

I think the flintlock would get you further down the road.

A friend is giving me his Lee Loader in .44 mag, says he has no use for it.. I do! I can keep 4 guns running with it and a plastic mallet. AND,,, I still have my Redding Powder Scale!.

Randy

[Bret4207]

Not really on topic, but I think reloading used to be a lot simpler. I started with a Lee hand kit, some powder and primers- that's it! I think I'd been reloading 3-4 years before I got access to a scale. I used dippers exclusively for several years, going to an older guy I knew and having him weigh out charges for me so I could make dippers. I never had an electric pot, much less a BP, till 1998 IIRC and it might have been well after that. I didn't know I needed a hardness tester, progressive press, Rock Chucker press, tumblers, trimmers, primer pocket uniformers, annealing machines, custom dies/moulds/brass, dribblers, electronic scales with powder dispensers, chronographs, range carts, multiple BP pots, Star sizers with air pressure lube reservoirs and hydraulic operation, benchrest dies, cowboy dies, carbide dies, X dies, small base dies, lube heaters, ballistics programs and test equipment...........in short, it was just a lot simpler.

[Hang Fire]

It would be interesting to see what a 5,000 page catalog of Simmons Hardware Company (St. Louis, MO) had to offer back around turn of the 20th century. They bought many guns and related accessories from manufactures in large amounts, sold to the public but also acted as distributor to smaller hardware stores and gun shops across the nation.

I have a Colt SAA that was built in 1886 and was one of 15 shipped to Simmons in Feb. 1887, but there the trail ends as almost none of their records survive.

[uscra112]

I have a couple of the old Winchester heavy-duty reloading tools, with the die that screwed onto the body with a big coarse thread. Unlike the Ideal tong tools, the Winchester tool will full-length size even a .45-70 case, along with everything else it did. Beautifully made, too.

[perotter]

Does anyone have any factual information about how re-loading was done prior to the 1920's by individuals? Were there kits like the Lee Handload set up and what was used for scales? Did folks, farmers and those who lived in very rural areas, load their own, or was something like the old Sears catalog used for buying bullets? I am just curious as to the methods used way, way back to re-load. Thanks...

One branch of my family went right from muzzle loader to reloading. On their home farm, that one of my great uncle still owned until about 1970, is were they did reloaded shotgun & rifle shells.

I saw the equipment they used when I was 5-7 years old and don't recall there being a powder scale. The shotgun tools were like Lee Loaders. The rifle were tong type. I think they used dippers and the 1st powder scale being one that my dad's oldest brother got after WW2.

None of them are around any more to ask for more detail.

FWIW, I don't think reloading was any deadlier using the tools that they had. Then, as now, it came down to doing it as a thoughtful process. In my family it's a given that you are going to learn to reload. I started at age 11 with a Lee Loader for .410 and added other Lee Loaders over the next few years. The only exception was when my dad(he wasn't big on guns) bought a 12 ga and my uncle ordered the Lee Load All for that.

[3006guns]

As soon as there were brass cases, there was reloading. The earliest cases had no primer, just a small hole where the flame from a percussion cap could enter to ignite the (black) powder. Civil War Maynards worked this way. Those cases were almost always reloaded, unless they were lost in battle. (See "A guide to the Maynard Breechloader" by George Layton.) Some early Ballards could fire rimfire cartridges, but with a quick switch on the breechblock, a cap could be fired. The reloader poked a hole in the used rimfire case with a nail, reloaded it with black, and reverted to the percussion cap.

Then came smokeless, and in the early days there was great trouble with people loading smokeless like they did black, (i.e. fill the case up and seat a boolit). Even after "bulk smokeless" appeared, this misunderstanding must have blown up quite a few guns, (and reloaders).

Bulk smokeless was therefor invented for the shotshell reloader, who knew how to ladle out his powder by the "dram", but had no scale, other than what he weighed his grain and hogs on, and that was rarely accurate even to the pound, never mind grains. The "dram" measure concept survives today, just look at any box of new shot-shells.

It took quite a while for precision powder-measuring to catch on.

Go on eBay and you will find reprints of the old Ideal reloading handbooks going back into the 19th century for sale. Abby at Cornell Publications has done an incredible job of collecting, cataloging, reprinting stuff from that era.

Here's one URL:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-1900-H...item43ab681561

This is the most appropriate answer to the question, I believe. There really was no "precision" as we take it for granted today. Let's face it, you'd really have to try to get yourself in trouble with black powder as the pressure curve is nowhere near that of smokeless. I think the worst that could happen would be an inaccurate load and some fouling.

By the way, I have copies of both Earl Naramore and Phil Sharpe's books and peruse them regularly for nostalgia. I prefer Naramore's direct solid advice. Sharpe gives me the impression of a somewhat arrogant "know it all" (I base that comment on an old friend who actually MET him).

[perotter]

I use Phil Sharpe's book as a reference for using Unique, 2400, etc in rifle cartridges. I treat it as I would any load data, careful thought.

There are free e-books at Steve's Page available for both Naramore's and Sharpe's books.

[Bret4207]

This is the most appropriate answer to the question, I believe. There really was no "precision" as we take it for granted today. Let's face it, you'd really have to try to get yourself in trouble with black powder as the pressure curve is nowhere near that of smokeless. I think the worst that could happen would be an inaccurate load and some fouling.

By the way, I have copies of both Earl Naramore and Phil Sharpe's books and peruse them regularly for nostalgia. I prefer Naramore's direct solid advice. Sharpe gives me the impression of a somewhat arrogant "know it all" (I base that comment on an old friend who actually MET him).

I also had an older acquaintance who knew Sharpe from working with him in WW2. He also said he was somewhat arrogant and that his best friend was the bottle. No matter, his work remains and is superb.

As far as older reloading book go I prefer JR Mattern. Excellent book with a bit of humor in there and LOTS of cast info! IIRC the title is "Handloading Ammunition".

[1Shirt]

You used what you had way back when. Recall an article in (I think) one of the old Gun Digests on loading with a hammer and a nail what was ground down to knock out the primer, and a wood dowl to seat the new primer. Ctg was a 30-30 I believe, and a dipper made of a cut off case was used. Think that had to be the forerunner of the Lee loader. Blt was cast, cake cut lubed as cast, and ctg was single loaded. I started with a used 310 tool in 222, and a used Webster, oil dampered scale, and an old lyman manual. Brings back memories, mostly good!
It was not for sure production loading, but it brought great satisfaction.
1Shirt!

[Bad Water Bill]

I finally finished reading my copy of "Yours truly Harvey Donaldson"

He started shooting and re loading about 1899 and continued till he died sometime in 1972. His stories of shooting with the likes of POPE etc are very entertaining and educational. A great read for the folks that do not have copies of the first 15-20 HANDLOADER magazines.

There is so much info there you will suffer brain overload several times and he wrote like you were sitting across the campfire from him.

[Char-Gar]

I think reloading today is more dangerous than when they used hand tools as mentioned in the OP. There are more overcharges and blowup firearms today with all the new progressive tools in use. I started reloading well over 50 years ago, and read and hear more today of blow up firearms with reloads than I did "back in the day".