Swedish Roller for Christmas 12.7 x 44mm?

[todd987]

My wonderful wife gave me a Swedish Roller for Christmas.
We ordered it online and I wasn't able to touch it until today when we opened gifts.



I don’t have the tools to measure the bore or chamber so I took some photos to help explain.
It's supposed to be 12.7x44R.
I purchased some 12.7x44R brass (converted 348) and bullets .513 350grain from Buffalo Arms.
Can’t get the 12.7x44R brass to chamber.. in fact I can’t get 45-70 brass chamber either.
The picture is of 45-70 brass .. it only starts going in the chamber.
When I place the bullet in the muzzle it appears to be close to the correct size.
It almost looks like it has a chamber insert to convert to another caliber.
Any ideas?

[Haggway]

Thats a great gift. Looks like a fun gun in the works.
Might be relined, but I am not an expert. Try a chamber cast.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The rifle has definitely been sleeved! Perhaps 45LC?

[Ed in North Texas]

My Swede measures .503 at the muzzle, so the failure of .513 to enter the bore may not be much of an indicator. The failure to chamber a .45-70 case is a problem, the chamber has obviously been greatly reduced. Other than Cap'n's suggestion of .45 Colt (we can't tell if there is a sleeving of the bore to .454), there is no logical reason for that, though I wonder if this was one which someone started the conversion to 8mm with a chamber insert, but never lined the barrel????

[Boz330]

My Swede measures .503 at the muzzle, so the failure of .513 to enter the bore may not be much of an indicator. The failure to chamber a .45-70 case is a problem, the chamber has obviously been greatly reduced. Other than Cap'n's suggestion of .45 Colt (we can't tell if there is a sleeving of the bore to .454), there is no logical reason for that, though I wonder if this was one which someone started the conversion to 8mm with a chamber insert, but never lined the barrel????

The 8MM conversion's receivers were heat treated and new barrels and blocks installed. The 8MM brass that I had was made from 45-70 cases so a 45-70 case should go into the chamber farther than that.
It looks like some sort of a sleeve has been installed in the chamber area. I would think that a chamber cast would be called for to see if it was chambered for something.
I know you probably don't want to think of this but it might not be a bad idea to return it since it isn't what you thought you were buying.

Bob

[todd987]

Bob - yeah I think that's best.
I'm sending it back tomorrow and swapping for another one.
I don't know how this one could be made to shoot well with the chamber it has...
The bore doesn't have a sleeve and is larger than the chamber size.
More than I can handle anyway.
Thanks todd

[Haggway]

Bummer. Are you getting another roller? This would have made a good rebarrel project.

[herbert buckland]

Have you tryed to remove the incert,it may just bump out with a 50 cal jag

[Ed in North Texas]

Would you care to tell us from whom you bought the rifle? I'm not asking for badmouthing the seller, but the information might help others avoid a similar situation by asking about the chamber first. This one still kind of sounds to me like a conversion of some sort which was not completed.

And thanks to Bob for the information about the 8mm not being a lined barrel, but a new one.

Ed

[todd987]

Ed - As soon as I let Alan (Alan's Armory) know about the issue he wrote back and offered my money back or swap for another rifle on his website.
The rolling block I picked as a replacement (RB59) cost more than the one I purchased and he ate the difference in price. Can't beat that...

I have purchased 4 or 5 guns from him in the past and this is the first one that had any issues. All had been better than he described on his website.
I think this one just slipped by...

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed - As soon as I let Alan (Alan's Armory) know about the issue he wrote back and offered my money back or swap for another rifle on his website.
The rolling block I picked as a replacement (RB59) cost more than the one I purchased and he ate the difference in price. Can't beat that...

I have purchased 4 or 5 guns from him in the past and this is the first one that had any issues. All had been better than he described on his website.
I think this one just slipped by...

I've bought from Alan myself. So, yes, I'm sure it just slipped by.

[Hednign]

The correct terminology on the Swedish and Norwegian RB`s is 12.17x44r. However, the size of the bores are all over the place. So are the chambers. The 50-70 and the 12.17x44 are more or less just the same. I used to have a Swedish roller that could take 50-70 casings. I use Bertram brass and formed 348 win brass. I prefer 348 win brass. Some swedes got issues with extracting 348 casings, but you can allways just replace the extractor and the problem is solved.

We got a few "specialized" molds for the scandinavian rollers, but most of us use the 50-70 gov mold made by Lyman. 70 grs of swiss no 4 behind it.

There is one thing you should check. Slug the bore in both ends. Ram a .51 area round ball into the muzzle, just an inch down or so. Push it out again and measure it. Do the same from the chamber end and measure it. The muzzle end ball should read smaller than the chamber end ball. If not you will most likely experience bad accuracy. Many many of those swedish rollers has a "reverse coned" barrel. Lapping the bore usually solves it.

If you got a bore with the right cone you should be able to get group size in the 2" area or less at 100m.

By the way, your rifle is a Carl Gustav. Your specimen might have had the barrel replaced, it doesn`t look original to me. If it came out of sweden during the past 20 years it might be a 45 Colt. Iv seen some of them. But you should be able to see that by looking into the chamber... Have you measured the rifle twist?

[Chicken Thief]

The correct terminology on the Swedish and Norwegian RB`s is 12.17x44r. However, the size of the bores are all over the place. So are the chambers. The 50-70 and the 12.17x44 are more or less just the same. I used to have a Swedish roller that could take 50-70 casings. I use Bertram brass and formed 348 win brass. I prefer 348 win brass. Some swedes got issues with extracting 348 casings, but you can allways just replace the extractor and the problem is solved.

We got a few "specialized" molds for the scandinavian rollers, but most of us use the 50-70 gov mold made by Lyman. 70 grs of swiss no 4 behind it.

There is one thing you should check. Slug the bore in both ends. Ram a .51 area round ball into the muzzle, just an inch down or so. Push it out again and measure it. Do the same from the chamber end and measure it. The muzzle end ball should read smaller than the chamber end ball. If not you will most likely experience bad accuracy. Many many of those swedish rollers has a "reverse coned" barrel. Lapping the bore usually solves it.

If you got a bore with the right cone you should be able to get group size in the 2" area or less at 100m.

By the way, your rifle is a Carl Gustav. Your specimen might have had the barrel replaced, it doesn`t look original to me. If it came out of sweden during the past 20 years it might be a 45 Colt. Iv seen some of them. But you should be able to see that by looking into the chamber... Have you measured the rifle twist?

They were designed as frontstuffers so thats why.
The fitst 30-40000 Swedish RB's were altered Vredes M1860 frontstuffers so the rifling was a tad off. On the other hand i have never rum into a Swedish RB with a Vredes barrel that did'nt shoot past my abilities!!!

[Hednign]

The biggest issue with many scandinavian rollers is that when the machining tools started to get worn you got rifles a bit out of standard measurment. Iv seen rollers with chambers way out of the correct size, bore goes the same way. And these rifles where still rimfire, so they have seen very little use.

I have just one 12.17x44 that has been converted from a Vrede. A Granberg. This one got a chamber so tight I cant even make new Bertram brass into the chamber. The Vredes had a slightly bigger diameter bore, so making it shoot good is a tricky task.

A good 12.17x44 is capable of outshooting a good Springfield Trapdoor. But its not something you see every day. The Trapdoor is a way better rifle in all ends. Thats why I never bring the Rollers to a BPCR competition, allways the TD or the Highwall. Then again we got a scandinavian class called 12.17x44. 50m offhand.

[Ed in North Texas]

SNIP
The Trapdoor is a way better rifle in all ends. Thats why I never bring the Rollers to a BPCR competition, allways the TD or the Highwall.

Maybe that is why George A. Custer's favorite hunting rifle was a Remington Roller. I guess he didn't want to get too much advantage over the game by using one of the TDs he was surrounded by, he used the "lesser" Remington to make it a fairer hunt.

Ed

[Hednign]

Well, maybe he found it easier to get the casings out when the extractor didnt get a grip on those **** copper casings. A lot easier to get out a stuck casing out of a roller than a TD.... Im sure his men cursed them at Little Big Horn..

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I finally got to fireforming my cases last weekend. I have made them from 450/400NE which has the exact size rim as the original. My chamber is so tight a 50/70 won't even go close, the rim and body are just too big.

First 2 sighters were low but I was happy with the remainder - 8 shots at 100yds. Load was 66gn Swiss with a Lyman 151141 boolit sized to .510. Now they are fireformed I should be able to get a full 70gns in the case with the same compression.

[Ed in North Texas]

Well, maybe he found it easier to get the casings out when the extractor didnt get a grip on those **** copper casings. A lot easier to get out a stuck casing out of a roller than a TD.... Im sure his men cursed them at Little Big Horn..

Not to put too fine a point on it, the RBs had a better extraction system than the TD, and apparently didn't have a common problem with stuck cases. I've not seen any reports of extraction problems, and the number of countries which bought the RB would tend to indicate that there were no reported problems at that time. And for the early rifles, the extractor was backed up with the cleaning rod if all else failed.

[Ed in North Texas]

BA - Nice shooting.

[Hednign]

Nice shooting. Did you just shoot or did you do use a blowtube, or swiping between shots?