All the Complaining That Goes On About Lee Precision

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I started reloading in 1964. Lyman stuff, including pots, molds, sizers and presses. I gradually moved up to RCBS after I got out of the Army in 1971. About twenty-eight years ago I started IPSC shooting. A friend and I went in on an SDB in 45 acp. I don't know how many thousand rounds we loaded, but we had two full to the rim 3lb coffee cans and half of a third full of empty primers with zero malfunctions.

I've shot Benchrest, Schuetzen, and Cowboy Action over the years.

In the last twenty-five years I have NEVER!! had anyone admit to using Lee equipment at any match. I have, on the other hand owned eleven of the hand priming tools. All of them broke priming rifle brass at matches and at home before I gave up on them about 2000. I was on my fourth set of the punch-style depriming punches when they broke and I quit that.

From the appearance of every product, one would expect they were built in China.

In my experience, Lee products survive based on low cost. They appeal primarily to low volume reloaders, who have low level accuracy standards. I load 308 Win on one of my 550's. I have two because I am too old and lazy to switch the priming system from small to large and vice versa. My loads with good old 311332 shoot sub-moa out to 300yds out of my Savage 12BV-SS in that caliber.

Rich

I now await a barrage of responses from Lee press & die users who are consistently producing cast bullet loads in any caliber under 1moa at 100 yds.

[jmort]

"From the appearance of every product, one would expect they were built in China"

Got to love categorical idiotic comments. Yes every single product. What are the highest rated single stage and turret presses on Midway USA? Hint, they appear to be made in China. There is a reason Lee Precision is number one. God Bless Richard Lee and Lee Precision for sponsoring this site.

[PS Paul]

Well, it's like I stated. Maybe NOT for the benchrest crowd like sharpshooter says, but sure works like a charm for lots of the rest of us "regular shooters". Now I have loaded and shot tens of thousands of rounds over the years with a few presses. Not all Lee. but it seems a fact that those of us who started with Lee would not have been able to start at all and THAT fact makes 'em tops in my book.....

I could also make the "Zebco 33" analogy: MANY of us would never have started fishing or have been able to AFFORD fishing if not for the Zebco 33 reel.
and nowadays, just about ANY PRODUCT that can bring MORE folks to "our side of the fence" as shooters will also be held as esteemed by me. Separatist, elitist, "better than thou"positions taken by folks over products which help ALL AMERICANS partake in the shooting and reloading pursuits should be avoided, you know? Otjerwise, we don't stand divided...... we fall. That's all.

[Lead Fred]

When I got back into reloading, I went to gun shows and bought the same stuff I used in the 60s.
All of Lee's "Perfect" line is pure Chinese garbage.
I have a brand new power drop, and scale I got from a trade, I can not give them away.
I put up 3 scales for sale. The 1966s Bonanza & Redding scales sold within days.
Still have the Lee stuff.

Cheap isnt good, its cheap, thats what China does, and some Americans are silly enough to buy the stuff

[BCRider]

Well this is certainly a long run for a thread ! ! ! ! !

I've got a bunch of Lee stuff as well as a Dillon. For the basics I don't mind Lee presses. And their dies are decent and work. But when it comes to their progressive press setups I've got to say that they run mostly on good intentions. I've ran into a bunch of problems with my Lee Pro 1000 press that I was given a few years back. It's working decently reliably NOW. But only with a bunch of modifications done along the way.

In particular the "ski run" primer delivery system sucks the worst. I minimized the jams somewhat by fileing a couple of extra notches on the back of the plate support rod so the primer tray gets a couple of extra jiggles. But it still jams now and then with the large pistol primers when the primer plate is near to full with 100 primers. The "ski slope" also tends to work out of the shell plate holder. So I drilled and tapped for a set screw to lock it into place accurately on both the large and small primer shell plates I've got.

A dogleg shaped wire ejects the loaded rounds more reliably.

The auto index got me into more trouble than it was worth. I pulled the twisty shaft out and I index manually. Thus when the de-capping die invariably holds and re-positions the occasional spent primer back into the casing I can more easily deal with it.

I am still lured by the low cost of the Lee equipment and went looking at a Load Master on You Tube. What I found was a bunch of kludges to get the primers to feed better and some rather wizardly "how to's" on setting up the system so it would operate correctly. That was enough for me.

I went with the "blue" brand and I'm now a lot happier. Yes the Lee stuff can be made to work but not without a lot of tricks that we should not have to deal with.

I'm back to using the old Lee for the present as my Dillon is still in boxes in the garage while I get my basement dream shop renos finished. As it happens the Lee was on the edge of the massive pile so it got put back into service for the past year and a bit. But when I get my Dillon back out the Lee is going to be given to a buddy. And for all that I've fixed it up and got it working well with MANY mods I've had it. It's blue for me and I won't be going back.

[ridurall]

For many years I was an RCBS snob and most of my equipment was green. Then I started cussing trying to use RCBS collet type trimmers and figured out that I just could not get an exact length every time with it without using a torque wrench. Then I turned to the Lee trimmers and from .223 to 50 BMG they are always the right length. I also had been using a loaned RCBS 50 BMG press for 3 years and the owner decided he was going to give reloading a try for his Barrett that the press came with. When I checked out the $579 price compared to the $215 price for a Lee 50 BMG press. I was worried that it would be made out of aluminum but when it arrived I was surprised to find out it was steel and I'm tickled pink with it. I do like my Lyman turret press for other calibers but the 50 BMG press is great for the Lee push through sizer also. I needed one sized .513 for my new 850 grain mold I just got today and my gunsmith friend turned my Lee .510 into what I need mighty quick. I have learned this evening that my Lee bottom pour ain't going to work for that big 3 bollit 850 grain mold. I'm going to have to hand dip them from now on.

[jcwit]

In my experience, Lee products survive based on low cost. They appeal primarily to low volume reloaders, who have low level accuracy standards. I load 308 Win on one of my 550's. I have two because I am too old and lazy to switch the priming system from small to large and vice versa. My loads with good old 311332 shoot sub-moa out to 300yds out of my Savage 12BV-SS in that caliber.

With this logic the YUGO car that was imported would still be available and selling like hotcakes. After all it was just a rebranded Fiat.

[jcwit]

When I got back into reloading, I went to gun shows and bought the same stuff I used in the 60s.
All of Lee's "Perfect" line is pure Chinese garbage.
I have a brand new power drop, and scale I got from a trade, I can not give them away.
I put up 3 scales for sale. The 1966s Bonanza & Redding scales sold within days.
Still have the Lee stuff.

Cheap isnt good, its cheap, thats what China does, and some Americans are silly enough to buy the stuff

Show me an item marketed by Lee made in china.

[jcwit]

In the last twenty-five years I have NEVER!! had anyone admit to using Lee equipment at any match. I have, on the other hand owned eleven of the hand priming tools. All of them broke priming rifle brass at matches and at home before I gave up on them about 2000. I was on my fourth set of the punch-style depriming punches when they broke and I quit that.

I reload .223 using Lee Loader dies and a Sinclair Arbor Press, I use a Lee Perfect powder measure to drop my powder charges, I use the old, old style Lee priming tools with the screw in shell holders.

I use Lake City brass dated 2001, Sierra Match King #1400 53 grain bullets, with 22 1/2 grains of Accurate 2015 powder, this load and equipment gives accuracy from my rifle, 1 hole 5 shot groups at just over .228 over all, providing the wind doesn't screw things up.

My loading is done in the same way as if I were using L.E. Wilson dies.

[zuke]

When I got back into reloading, I went to gun shows and bought the same stuff I used in the 60s.
All of Lee's "Perfect" line is pure Chinese garbage.
I have a brand new power drop, and scale I got from a trade, I can not give them away.
I put up 3 scales for sale. The 1966s Bonanza & Redding scales sold within days.
Still have the Lee stuff.

Cheap isnt good, its cheap, thats what China does, and some Americans are silly enough to buy the stuff

All LEE stuff is made in the USA.
you haven't REALLY looked at the rest of the reloading companies, have you?

[jmort]

"All of Lee's "Perfect" line is pure Chinese garbage."

Another genius comment. Where do people get this nonsense? It's one thing to be completely wrong, as is this misstatement, but it is another to be purposefully or negligently ignorant. I believe RCBS for sure and possibly Lyman sell a few products "Made in China" Not Lee Precision. God Bless Lee Precision and Richard Lee and thanks to Lee Precision for sponsoring this site.

[Ben]

" We are thankful to say Lee Precision products are cast, machined and assembled in the USA. "

John Lee, President

April 4, 2013

[stocker1042]

I am just getting back into reloading. The first time I was in (2003ish) I had a basic Lee single stage press. I loaded 1000's of rounds on it. It got me into reloading for less than $250 with dies for several calibers and hooked me on the hobby. I had to get out of the hobby for a few years and now I'm back. The brand I'm most likely going to buy when they are back in stock? Lee turret press.

[1hole]

"In my experience, Lee products survive based on low cost. They appeal primarily to low volume reloaders, who have low level accuracy standards."

I've been reloading for everything since '65 with virtually every brand of equipment made back then or since. I can say with personal knowledge that Lee's products do as well as any if they are chosen the task and used intelligently but nothing works well if it's used foolishly.

I bought two "pot metal" Lee Autoprimes in '87 because they were supposed to break easily. Neither has - yet - but there's still time I suppose; I think it's helped that my solution to difficult seating is to find out why and correct it rather than just pushing on the tool harder.. maybe??

It's worth noting, in laughter, that those who have no better judgement than to sneer at Lee's Challenger press because it's not cast iron probably need a cast iron press to survive misuse but Lee's Classic Cast is better designed and better made than any other press in it's class, at any price. It's RCBS/Hornady/Lyman that market Chinese reloading "junk" under their labels, not Lee. Anyone thinking paying more for reloading tools will automatically result in better accuracy has too little experience or understanding of tools in general to be listened to.

Anyone refusing to use Chinese stuff is probably going to be dismayed if they check the "made in" labels of their computer-printer-modem-router, CD-DVD player, camera, cell phone, most hand and power tools, nails-nuts-bolts-screws, kid's toys, kitchen utensils and gadgets, etc. Meaning it may stroke your ego to publically blast Chinese - or Lee - stuff as an "expert" but you really don't know what you're talking about.

[gunshot98]

I started in the early 70's with the Lee Hand Loader. I loaded a BUNCH of 20 ga shotgun shell's. All these year's i've loaded with Lee and other brands and have not been disappointed in any of them. As of today i own 9 lee loaders and several others. As you can see i like variety. They all do certain things well.

[Cowboy T]

Well, here's a real-world update re: the Pro 1000 progressive press. I've got two of these, one for small primer rounds, and one for large primer ones.

My small primer Pro 1000, which is set up for .38/357, now has just over 50,000 rounds on it. This is in about 5 years. The one part on it that broke was my fault, and Lee still sent me a replacement. Other than that, the press just pumps out .38 Special rounds without fussing. I comfortably do about 375 rounds/hour out of the thing, and that's measured over the full 60 minutes, with primer/powder/case restocks. At the rate I'm going, I should have over 100,000 on it by the year 2020. Yes, I do practice at the range quite regularly.

The other Pro 1000, set up for .44 Spl/Mag and .45 Colt, is also pretty much trouble-free. Out of that one, I get about 300 rounds/hour due to the greater surface area of brass going through the decapper/resizer die. On that one, I haven't yet broken any parts. It's got about 10,000 rounds on its meter, since I shoot a lot more .38 Spl than I do the bigger bores.

Just keep the primer chute clean, and remember to tap the primer tray every 4th or so load if need be to make sure primers are going down the chute. You do want the Pro 1000's primer chute to be full.

Are the Pro 1000's as solidly built as a Dillon RL-550B? No way, not even close. But do they really need to be?

The real question here, I think, is, "are the Lee presses good enough for the intended market?" Assuming the intended market is the hobbyist reloader like me, experience has shown me the answer is "yes".

I will continue regarding their moulds in the next post.

[Cowboy T]

Now, regarding Lee's aluminum moulds. I use primarily the 6-cavity models. They're just that much faster than any 2-cavity mould I've ever seen. That cam-action sprue plate handle is a godsend. Every other mould maker should be using a similar design, because it works that well (pretty please, Miha? With sugar on top?).

My 358-105-SWC mould has about 40,000 boolits on its clock. Over time, in the fourth cavity, it's developed a nick. This is right where the 45-degree angled corner of the sprue plate runs across the mould; it's the 4th cavity. So, any boolits coming out of that cavity have a little spur on 'em. This also happened with another mould that I use a whole lot, the 452-200-RF. I use that one for .45 ACP and light .45 Colt. I don't know exactly how many boolits that mould has on it, but it's somewhere in the low 10,000 range. Again, the 4th cavity developed a nick where that sprue plate angle crosses over it, causing a spur on that cavity's boolits.

In all cases, the sizing die gets rid of that spur. Lee's sizing dies are, I gotta say, easy to use, and I do have time to let the tumble lube dry overnight. I usually lube a thousand or two boolits at once; takes about 5 minutes to both lube 'em and get 'em on the wax paper. Next day, they're dried and ready to go.

Given the price of Lee's moulds, I'd say I've definitely gotten my money's worth. A 6-cavity mould is right around $40 today, street price. Both moulds remain in regular use.

The Pro 4-20 downpour-spout casting pot, which is around $70 street price, also has served me well. I bought a second one just to speed things up even more. The original one did need cleaning after tens of thousands of booilts through its spout, no question (it eventually became a Leak-O-Matic). But after cleaning that spout, the Leak-O-Matic aspect went away. The new one, of course, has no such issue yet. The metal spout handle that the new ones have is heavier than the original wooden one and is probably helping keep that leakage issue to a minimum. I may get one for the "older" pot, too.

I've never used a Lyman or RCBS melting pot, so I don't have a basis for comparison. But I can say that Lee's pot is "good enough" for me to cast a whole lot of boolits with, which I have done. Lyman and RCBS ask $250 and up for their melting pots. I'm guessing that they're very good pots, too. But Lee made it affordable to even get started casting. Turns out their moulds and pots remain good enough for me to keep using them regularly, and I do.

Anything that can get more folks casting boolits is, as far as I'm concerned, a Good Thing. This is a right, not a privilege, and we need numbers. We need Lyman, RCBS, LBT, NOE, MiHec (especially MiHec!), Saeco, etc. And we also definitely need Lee.

[Cowboy T]

And finally, the Loadmaster.

I bought a used Loadmaster from someone for about $120. This was complete with everything except the dies (even included the case collator). Had the recently updated, red-colored large primer chute assembly with it.

There's one major flaw, and it's with the priming mechanism. There's a little hole at the bottom of the primer chute that the priming ram goes through, to seat the primer. This is much like the Pro 1000's design. Unfortunately, on the Loadmaster, that hole's just a wee bit too small. This causes the priming ram to bind up against one side of that hole and not fully return to its bottom position. This is why you see about 1/3 of the shells with either sideways or upside-down primers. This is the source of the repeated claims of Loadmasters sucking monkey gonads. And it definitely is a problem.

After studying the issue, I found a fix. That hole in the primer chute needs to be milled/drilled out a bit to give the priming ram that extra room it needs. I did this with a 7/32" inch drill bit. The below picture shows the location where I did this (thumbnail is clickable). If the pic disappears, it's on the side where the "square" corner is.



Now, the Loadmaster will put out about 250 rounds/minute of .45 ACP without fuss. Lee should make this modification in their injection-mould or whatever it is they use, to correct this at the factory. Seriously, this one mod turned the Loadmaster from a piece of you-know-what into a remarkably well-running press. The Pro 1000 is definitely faster, but the Loadmaster can do longer cartridges (e. g. .45-70 length) progressively.

There is one part that I can tell will be prone to wearing out after a while, and that's the plastic auto-indexer rocker piece. I don't foresee that happening for a few tens of thousands of rounds, but it will happen. Fortunately, it's a two-dollar part.

Also, you may occasionally need to retighten the round nut that keeps the shell plate held down. Over time, that can become a little loose, leading to primer feed actuation issues. Not a show-stopper, but just something to keep in mind. Takes maybe 3 seconds to hand-cinch it back down; don't make it Hulk Hogan-tight.

Is it a Hornady LnL AP? Heavens, no. Is it a Dillon XL-650? Not even close. Could it be "good enough" for the hobbyist reloader? I think so, with the aforementioned 7/32" hole diameter modification. I cannot say at this point that I'd use a Loadmaster for competition reloading, due to volume, but a hobbyist should be pretty well served by it.

[enfieldphile]

Idaho Sharpshooter said, "In 25 years I have NEVER had anyone admit to using Lee equipment at any match!"

There are a lot of guys who won't admit to "after dark interludes" with big women either!

I use Lee, Redding, Saeco, Hornady, Wilson, Forster, Lyman, Accurate, etc. I choose a tool based on how well it does the job, NOT on its brand name.

I have loaded tons of lead on a Lee Classic Cast turret press. It's still perfect. I don't like the Lee carbide crimp die, so I use a Redding Profile Crimp die. See? It's what works for the job. Whoever makes it, isn't important.

[mac60]

For 4 months in 1993 Robert Frey held a 1000 yd. benchrest record (10 shots 4.076") in REGISTERED COMPETITION - with ammo loaded using Lee collet dies. In fairness to Idaho Sharpshooter, he said he never heard anybody admit to using Lee equipment at a match - not that nobody ever had.