All the Complaining That Goes On About Lee Precision

[EDG]

You can make general statements about knowing the cost of production but you probably do not know the cost of overhead, shipping and mark up. If you think you are paying too much you may be buying a product from a union shop in what is known as a "high cost region". The northeast and the west coast of the US are both known as high cost regions. You will note the high prices from Redding may have something to do with the labor market in New York.

Want something cheap? You can get it cheap. That does not mean the engineering is any good. The cost of the engineering only appears in the overhead. It is not part of the cost of raw material or cost of touch labor.

There is a direct connection between cost of manufacturing and retail cost and you have to factor in the lot size.
You can get a good deal on anyone's 30-30 dies but you cannot get a good deal on .505 Gibbs because they are not built in large quantity. It is no more expensive to make a set of 505 Gibbs dies from the cost or material or labor stand point. The cost of setting up for a new run of dies gets allocated over a smaller lot size of dies and drives the cost up. Modern shops organized to minimize set up labor can produce smaller lots at better prices while maintaining their profit level.
Even though the die companies organize dies into groups for purposes of pricing they undoubtedly do not make exactly the same profit on every set of dies. Many manufacturers sell products that serve to fill out their product lines to keep customers from going to another brand. These line fillers don't always make money.
I am sure they make money on 45-70 dies and make next to nothing on .416 Remington or .416 Rigby dies. It is all about volume versus the cost of set up.

Sinclair's is going to sell Lee? One of their paper catalogs appeared in my mailbox a couple of years ago, only Lee was the original hand primer, the special shell holders it uses, and the universal depriming die.

Leafing thru that catalog I can see why a lot of you peeps would be leery of Lee; all the rest of the goods were at least triple what Lee charges, and some four or five times more. And yet they do the same function.

I never had lots of money to waste, so I managed to figure out the best value when I did pull the wallet out. Most of the time.

It takes some research and knowledge about what it costs to make various items; so if I see something that has $1 of material, 5 minutes of machine time, if that, to make it, and they want $50+ for it; I know I'm getting stroked.

There used to be a relationship between cost of production and retail cost, but that seems to have disappeared over the last 20 years and it's crazy pricing and see which fools that believe 'you get what you pay for' will bite....if you understand cost of production, you'll know when it's a 'too good to be true' of a deal.

Or when you're getting stroked...

[EDG]

Do you really want junk that does not work? I bet you would not even pay the postage much less pay what I paid for it. Now who is the sucker?

I will accept the responsibility of rescuing you from the dreaded LEE scourge. Just send all those wasted purchases to me for quiet disposal. I promise not to publicly embarrass you by telling the world you got suckered.

[dragon813gt]

This is all very simple. Use whatever brand you want. You can find turds in every manufacturers catalog. Let's not pretend that RCBS hasn't turned out some poorly designed presses. You can discuss how it happens more often w/ Lee until everyone is blue in the face. It all boils down to use whatever brand you want. Bickering on the internet about it won't change anyone's opinion.

[shoot-n-lead]

This is all very simple. Use whatever brand you want. You can find turds in every manufacturers catalog. Let's not pretend that RCBS hasn't turned out some poorly designed presses. You can discuss how it happens more often w/ Lee until everyone is blue in the face. It all boils down to use whatever brand you want. Bickering on the internet about it won't change anyone's opinion.

Bingo!

I have a RCBS hand priming tool that came out of box...a mess. I needed it, so I set about hand fitting about half of the parts to get it to work...still doesn't work to my satisfaction...not worth arguing more with RCBS about it...BUT, I won't buy another one.

With that said, I have had some real junk from Lee...not the least of which was a Pro 1000.

I use some Lee stuff, still, but I really prefer to buy used quality reloading tools rather than buy new Lee.

[kmw1954]

Maybe I should start a list of things I've purchased over the years that turn out to be less than I expected.
Front loading washer/dryer, $3000.00+. Had to call for repair after 1 year
Oven, 5 years old, replaced igniter twice
Shallow well jet pump, have replaced twice in 6 years, well check valve have replace 8 times in 6 years
Coffee makers, lost count
Cell phones, lost count
Laptops, 3 in the last 5 years

Now the Big One, Hospital stays. 3 in the past 12 months for chest pain. 1 visit received a heart stent, 2 other stays with heart cath's were they didn't find anything! I'm not going to even state what those 3 visits cost as one even included a Flight for Life ride.

Yet you all will argue here and all the other forums I visit for an eternity which reloading equipment is junk and which is the greatest. This thread has already been going on for 5 years and has proved nothing.

[Vinne]

luvmy40, you made a good choice. I've been playing with my Load Fast and it has been a joy to work. I have a Load All for many years now and like you didn't know about Lee's 12ga autoloader till recently. You have to mind it more carefully but it will do just as good a job as the Load All only faster. If I want to try a different load I start with the Load All then can switch over to crank em out with the Load Fast. Once you get going, you don't want to stop.

[No Blue]

You can make general statements about knowing the cost of production but you probably do not know the cost of overhead, shipping and mark up. If you think you are paying too much you may be buying a product from a union shop in what is known as a "high cost region". The northeast and the west coast of the US are both known as high cost regions. You will note the high prices from Redding may have something to do with the labor market in New York.

Want something cheap? You can get it cheap. That does not mean the engineering is any good. The cost of the engineering only appears in the overhead. It is not part of the cost of raw material or cost of touch labor.

There is a direct connection between cost of manufacturing and retail cost and you have to factor in the lot size.
You can get a good deal on anyone's 30-30 dies but you cannot get a good deal on .505 Gibbs because they are not built in large quantity. It is no more expensive to make a set of 505 Gibbs dies from the cost or material or labor stand point. The cost of setting up for a new run of dies gets allocated over a smaller lot size of dies and drives the cost up. Modern shops organized to minimize set up labor can produce smaller lots at better prices while maintaining their profit level.
Even though the die companies organize dies into groups for purposes of pricing they undoubtedly do not make exactly the same profit on every set of dies. Many manufacturers sell products that serve to fill out their product lines to keep customers from going to another brand. These line fillers don't always make money.
I am sure they make money on 45-70 dies and make next to nothing on .416 Remington or .416 Rigby dies. It is all about volume versus the cost of set up.

I agree, there are some special considerations as to what eventually comes out as to retail pricing, but the day to day, 90% of the market, it's material cost, labor, and direct overhead.

Kind of like the difference between Apple and all the PC computers; Apple makes a 40%+ profit and most of the PC makers are lucky to make 8%. They both do the same function, but for various reasons, Apple is able to get the 'get what you pay for' crowd. None of the computer companies make any of the hardware, it's all supplied by the same group of vendors. It's only the software that is different. But it's 5 times more profit; richest company by far.

Every vendor on the planet wants the 'you get what you pay for' crowd; that's where the massive profits lie....not for me. I like for my money to stretch.

You might have different priorities....

[cainttype]

Every vendor on the planet wants the 'you get what you pay for' crowd; that's where the massive profits lie....not for me. I like for my money to stretch.

You might have different priorities....

If your point here is that LEE is cheap, and you would rather not spend more money for better equipment, you'll find little disagreement from the "You get what you pay for" crowd.
If your trying to convince people that know better that LEE is "Just as good as...", you're never going to gain any ground.

I've clearly stated several times that not everything LEE offers is junk, but they survive mainly by selling cheap products at cheap prices.

Since this is a casting site, let's consider a simple hypothetical...
You go to an estate sale where you find two brand new double cavity moulds with identical cavities, each priced at $20. One is a LEE, the other is (NOE, Accurate, MP, Mountain Moulds, or LBT... take your pick).
You can only leave with one... Which one do you take???

If you left the LEE every time, you understand that LEE's moulds are NOT "as good as (insert name here)".
If you took the LEE, even once, you made a poor, uninformed choice.

[kmw1954]

Since this is a casting site, let's consider a simple hypothetical...
You go to an estate sale where you find two brand new double cavity moulds with identical cavities, each priced at $20. One is a LEE, the other is (NOE, Accurate, MP, Mountain Moulds, or LBT... take your pick).
You can only leave with one... Which one do you take???

Now that is a fair and valid comparison.

What gets me going in all of these topic threads, anywhere, is when people insist on comparing the Lee Pro 1000 to a Dillon 450 or 550 and then call the Lee junk. Those 2 presses are not even in the same level. I would group the Pro 1000 with the Dillon SD with the Dillon still being superior in some ways but not others. The 450 and 550 are kind of in a class by themselves only because they have to be manually indexed. Then I would group the Dillon 650, Hornady LNL and the Lee LoadMaster in the same group and ranked in the order I have them listed. Does Dillon even make a turret press, or a single stage press?

I have only used Lee and RCBS pistol dies and honestly I cannot tell a difference in operation or performance. I would not buy or use a Lee balance scale. Who besides Lee makes and sells Powder dippers? I don't cast yet so I have no opinion or experience with molds, pots or ladles.

5 years and 248 posts later after reading this whole thread I'd seen hardly any mention of either the Hornady or RCBS progressive presses. Wonder why that is?

[kmrra]

This a Email That I sent Lee last night:

I received my Lee 4-20 lead pot from Natches today and it was damaged, It had to come damaged from Lee because the Box that it was in is in pristine condition, no Damage what so ever. all my loading gear is Lee stuff, along with the pot I also ordered over 200 dollars worth of stuff that was also Lee Molds and sizing dies.....The damage to the pot is as follows , Valve arm assy was bent , I got that fixed, the 2 EL3444 # 6 shoulder bolts were bent ,one broke the other is bent . and the The FE3463 carriage bolt for the Valve Knob was bent at a 90 degree position, I fixed that also .......I need the two shoulder bolts EL3444 replaced . I dont want to have to pay to get new parts I will make them first since it brand new I think thats all but fair . Like I said all my stuff I Lee stuff . The pot works Great It doesnt leak like they say in the reviews , I dont want to have to write a bad review just because of a couple of parts , But I will if I have to . I have read the warranty thing telling me to do this and do that and pay with a credit card, not going to do that either , just put a couple of those 10 cent parts in an envelope and send them to the above address and I will go out of my way and give a good review for this product
Thanks for your consideration ........

I recived a response today and they are sending parts out at no charge, I wasnt about to pay their shipping charge like they say in their Warranty page.

[omgb]

Blonds vs Redheads, chubby vs skinny, 21 vs 41, it's all in what makes your boat float. Got some Lee stuff, mostly it does the job. Got some Dillon stuff, mostly it too does the job. So does my RCBS and my Hornady and my Bonanza and Lachmiller and Sinclair and Lyman and Redding stuff. Over-all, I think Lee quality is utilitarian, there's no frills in their fit and finish. The others take various degrees of improved FnF based on the decade and the product. So, the word of the day is "utilitarian" like a Russian farm wife, they get the job done but without the glitz.

[sghart3578]

It puzzles me why any one would buy a Lee product and then bash it.

Let me explain. Anyone getting into reloading and/or casting is usually savvy enough to Google the heck out of the topic and form an opinion before they shell out any money. The interwebs are overflowing with Lee negativity.

But some guys seem to willingly ignore that stuff and buy Lee anyway, then go into bash mode when their $20 mold doesn't perform like a $100 Accurate mold.

The saying "You get what you pay for" may have been true in the Lucy and Ricky days but it doesn't count now. I will relay two recent personal examples.

I purchased a brand new CZ PCR in 9mm for around $600. It was a beautiful gun. I bought it only after hours of research and finally renting one at my local range. It was to be my first 9mm ever. (I know, how can a gun guy like me not have a 9mm?) Well, that gun would not go through a whole box (50 rounds) without 5 or 6 FTF or stovepipes. I sent the gun back and CZ USA agreed that it was a ***. They offered to replace it or refund my money. I took the refund.

I recently bought a brand new Henry Big Boy steel carbine in 357 mag. I wanted one for my gun trust to leave to my son. I already have a Marlin 1894CS for my first boy and this one was going to be for my youngest. Well, this rifle had a tool gouge inside the bore that ran the length of the barrel. I contacted Henry and Mr. Imperato himself offered me a refund. I gladly accepted.

Why do I mention these stories? Because I didn't go online and bash CZ or Henry. I accepted the fact that in today's market, with unprecedented demand for everything gun related, some things are going to slip by. It happens.

And these two guns were significantly more expensive than a $40 set of dies or a $80 lead pot.

Get over yourselves.

And for the record I am a big Lee fan. Several sets of Lee dies, three Lee presses and a ton of Lee accessories. I also have a Dillon 450 and a RCBS turret. The RCBS turret is an example of poor QA at the factory but I bought it used.

Steve in N CA

[W.R.Buchanan]

And I have purchased some very high end electronics, auto parts and non gun related parts from high end companies tat have been junk. Some high end electronics that have even arrived DOA.
Seems I also remember in my life time a number of Rockets exploding upon launch. So you don't always get what you pay for!

Yeah,,, apparently the Russians got a dose of this earlier today, when another one of their Rockets supplying the Space Station, Launched but failed to achieve orbit and ended up in pieces somewhere in Siberia.

It was the second one in a row that blew up. So they are trying to figure out ***?

But the things that Lee makes that are good most often are their die sets and various die type accessory tools. Some of the other stuff is junk more often. Not always but more often.
I tend to look at the "Machined Parts" as being the better products that they make as opposed to the Cast or Die Cast Items like presses and powder measures etc. That said, most all of their stuff is serviceable,,, It may not last forever, but I have yet to see any reloading tool that was worn out from use.

There are certain things you can buy that are worth more than they cost. A good example is the Bushnell TRS-25 Red Dot Sight which I feel is worth about double what they cost, based on my experience and what I've seen costing twice as much.

Lee Reloading Dies are worth more than they cost. The machining is excellent and that is MHO from a Machinist's point of view.

I'm sure that others have conflicting opinions on this but as a machinist, with 35 years in the trade and owning my own shop, I know exactly what I'm looking at and if their Dies were junk I would certainly tell you that too. I don't own any Lee Engineering Stock.

Randy

[kmrra]

Update , Just got an email from Lee and the have already shipped all Patrs that were damaged at no cost
all this in less than 24 hours. No complaints here

[NoAngel]

I've had some things from Lee turn out to be garbage. 99% of it has been good stuff though. It's worth the gamble and when I lose, I'm still ahead.

I have three sets of dies for my .223 - Lee, Redding and RCBS. I can't tell a dam bit of difference in any of them other than the RCBS is harder to set OAL on the seater. Lee's are as easy as it gets.
I can't see that accuracy or brass life is affected one bit either.

[shdwlkr]

I have used several lee molds, push through sizing dies, reloading dies, only issues I have is that some of 2 cavity molds sometimes have issues, but still work
Lee has had their issues here with molds especially in the past don't know how their molds are now. Like all who make reloading tools their can be issues and until they are worked out complains will exist.

[HeavyHev]

My bench is all Lee except for my bullet seating dies. The Hornady ones that have that little foreskin that comes down are down right amazing. I take that back, I do have an RCBS bench mount primer pocket swager.

[jmorris]

Bickering on the internet about it won't change anyone's opinion.

Funny part about that is that there are so many opinions that are based on no firsthand experience.

There are Lee bashers that have never owned a Lee product, just the same as there are folks that will spew BS about overpriced Dillon's that have never even seen one in person much less operated one.

Having owned progressives made by Lee, Hornady, RCBS and Dillion, I can find things that I like and dislike about all of them.

That doesn't mean I hate any of them, rather just the fact that none are perfect.

[kmw1954]

After being a member of a boating forum for the better part of 15 years we would always see the open question of "What is the best fishing boat".

The only answer is best for what fishing, best for what water, best for who. There is no such animal as best. We all have different requirements, expectations and needs.

[Vinne]

Right you are kmw1954. Most of us are not in that AA shooting class so we don't need the best-of-the-best equipment. As long as it gets the job done then we are happy as a bug in a rug.

I have used Lee for well over 40 years and find everything very useful. Their service has been great, their responses have been timely and their products have held up well. Like you said "You get what you paid for.". I feel my money has been well spent!!