Lyman 7.65 arg die question.

[adrians]

morning folks,
yesterday i recieved a NEW set of Arg 7.65 dies, so i decided to try and reform some 8mm brass ,i annealed the cases, trimmed to approx lenght ,lubed a tad and ran a couple through the sizing die, and trimmed again to the book lenght (2.100)the results were dissapointing.
after using the 30cal "M" die to get a good start i hand seated a 311284 and tried to chamber it for a seating measurement the sucker wouldn't chamber even with using all my force to close the bolt .
my question ,,, what am i doing wrong ?.
or are these 7.65 arg dies or just a generic 7.65 dies stamped arg ?
they clearly state 7.65 ARG.

[Maven]

Was the FL sizing die screwed down far enough so as to make firm contact with the shell holder? Were you using the correct shell holder? If you did these 2 things, is it possible that the FL die itself isn't reforming the case shoulders enough and needs to be shortened a bit...or returned to Lyman?

[1hole]

"my question ,,, what am i doing wrong ?"

I have no idea what a 'generic' 7.65 dies would be but I'm sure your's are indeed Argentine.

You probably aren't pushing your cases fully into the die, that's the most common problem.

Second most common problem, especially with cast bullets, is the neck diameter is too large to chamber due to thick case necks AND much too thick bullets.

[adrians]

thanks ,guys,,
1hole i wasn't really clear as to my generic term maybe i was thinking 7.65 bel/arg dies,i heard the bel mauser brass is a little differant than arg brass,heck i don't really know.
Maven,,, i screwed the die down to the shell plate then backed off one turn ,maybe thats the problem .
my chamber cast shows right on .312 dia and the 311284 drops at .312 also, so maybe the boolit needs sized a tad smaller ,but would that be too small for a .312 bore.
the shell holder is a #2 don't know the maker but i also have a #3 and one that says #16 none have a makers mark on them so i'm just trying all of them maybe one is "thinner" ,,,i will try all of them later on.
sorry for being so nieve on this subject but all my former forming (30-06-----8mm) has gone smooth .
i will get it to work eventually with yalls help i hope.
somethings don't come out easilly sometimes,for me anyhoo.

[Maven]

The #2 shell holder is what I use to reform '06 and sometimes 8 x 57mm brass for my Arg. Mau. as well. You may also want to search the auction sites or our "Want to Buy" section for a 7.65 x 53mm forming & trimming die. They aren't very expensive and correctly locate the shoulder for you. Btw, none of this stuff is intuitive so trial & error is often the stern instructor. Btw, not long ago, I tried reforming new .284Win. for my 7.5 x 55mm Swiss K-31's. They wouldn't chamber either, but Waksupi pointed out I hadn't turned the 7.5FL sizing die down far enough (to make firm contact with the shell holder). Once I did that and ran the .284Win. brass through it a 2nd time, all was perfect. We live and learn.

[Mk42gunner]

thanks ,guys,,
Maven,,, i screwed the die down to the shell plate then backed off one turn ,maybe thats the problem .

That is most of your problem. When reforming cases (particualarly smaller) you need to ensure the die meets the shellholder, so you size the parent case down enough.

After you have fireformed the cases, then you can start partially sizing them to fit your rifles chamber.

Robert

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I know with the RCBS dies I have, I had to remove some material from the top of the shell holder to get the shoulder in the right place. Another solution is to remove material from the bottom of the die, but without a lathe and carbide tooling it aint gonna happen.
I think I had to take like .018" off the shell holder to get it to close on the brass.

I read somewhere that Lee makes a special shell holder fore the Argie, #13 comes to mind, it has a thinner top to give the extra needed room for the shoulder.

[BudRow]

It seems that the Argentines were "tight" chambered. I take a piece of pop can and with a pair of sissors cut a strip of aluminum about .475" wide. Form the end in a simi circle like your thumb nail and shim BETWEEN the cartridge base and the shell holder. This will let the brass enter the die about .003 or .004" deeper. You should remove the decapping pin first lest you pierce the shim. Works for me and there is no alteration of the die or shell holder.

[Reload3006]

I am not sure but I think that Pat marlin just had a thread about resizing problem with a mauser he ended up facing about .050 off of his resize die because there was a difference. check out the military rifles forum.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134447

[adrians]

all good info fellas , me thinks when i did my first practice run i had the die all the way down then i gave it a half turn to back it off ( don't ask why cos i don't know).
i measured the thickness of those other shellholders i used and sure nuff they all are diff thicknesses the #2 being the thinnest ,so now i'm back from an early xmas at my inlaws i will follow your advise and run the die all the way down and leave it there ,,, i bet that cures my ailment,if not plan "b" try something else.
Maven::: yes sir -- we do live and learn.
have a great xmas and yall be safe..
adrian

[BudRow]

The industry standard for shell holders is .125" from the cartridge seat to the top of the shell holder. If you find that dimension varies more than + or - a couple of thousands, it is defective or been modified.

[swheeler]

all good info fellas , me thinks when i did my first practice run i had the die all the way down then i gave it a half turn to back it off ( don't ask why cos i don't know).
i measured the thickness of those other shellholders i used and sure nuff they all are diff thicknesses the #2 being the thinnest ,so now i'm back from an early xmas at my inlaws i will follow your advise and run the die all the way down and leave it there ,,, i bet that cures my ailment,if not plan "b" try something else.
Maven::: yes sir -- we do live and learn.
have a great xmas and yall be safe..
adrian

I don't really think you want to run the die all the way down and leave it there. Run the die down until the sized brass will just chamber, the very slightest of resistance does not hurt anything and actually sets headspace at zero, a good thing. With the die all the way down you may actually be bumping the shoulder back more than is needed, and if left there you will be working your brass more than needed, a bad thing.

[adrians]

swheeler,, the die will be down for initial sizing then i'll go back to my regular settings ,but you have a great point about bumping that shoulder too much ,i did it earlier when i was lets say "experimenting" with these new dies.
i have ordered a complete set of lyman shell holders, so in future i will have what i need ,when i need it , and all together in a fancy little orange box.

[Mk42gunner]

swheeler,, the die will be down for initial sizing then i'll go back to my regular settings ,but you have a great point about bumping that shoulder too much ,i did it earlier when i was lets say "experimenting" with these new dies.
i have ordered a complete set of lyman shell holders, so in future i will have what i need ,when i need it , and all together in a fancy little orange box.:smile:

That's what you think, reality is something different. I speak (write) from experience here; I have a couple of sets from Lee in the green box, and still end up buying guns that use shellholders I don't have. I still a few that I haven't used, but give me time.

The reason I have two sets of shellholders is that I need a second one for the RCBS hand priming tool. Consequently, I buy two shellholders when I need a new size.

Robert

[Larry Gibson]

I don't really think you want to run the die all the way down and leave it there. Run the die down until the sized brass will just chamber, the very slightest of resistance does not hurt anything and actually sets headspace at zero, a good thing. With the die all the way down you may actually be bumping the shoulder back more than is needed, and if left there you will be working your brass more than needed, a bad thing.

+another. As already mentioned, you did not adequate size/form the cases with the die backed out 1 turn.

Larry Gibson

[adrians]

Mk42gunner,, more shellholders??? when will it all end??.
i was successfull in making a case that chambered i used an 8x57 norma case (annealed a tad) trimmmed to length ,sized a 311284 to .312 it was a chore to get the bolt closed but ater closing it was all smooth.
i guess the shoulder wasn't set back enough so the bolt and chamber did the final "adjustments" but hopefully when i get the correct shellholder x2 it will be easier.
at least i know my seating depth now,---- i never had this kind of trouble forming 8mm from 30-06 sheeesh!.
have a great xmas .adrians.

[leadman]

If you have a press, like an RCBS that cams over at the end of the stroke you will have to turn the die down to touch then about another quarter to half a turn. This takes the slop out of the press.

You can also file some of the top of a shellholder to get the shoulder back a little more.

I have an RCBS trim die for the Arg. 7.65 and it works great. Really makes the job of reforming brass almost as easy as just sizing it.

[adrians]

leadman,
my press is an RCBS and i will try the 1/2 turn down method tonight after work,
that may do the trick for me as the brass only needs a hair more sizing as stated above the brass is very hard to chamber as is so a tad more would do it.
Midway has the trim die for sale for $37 something.
have a good-un.

[Tallyman]

Just a thought. . . . . I had the same problem with .223 dies.

An old timer gunsmith trained by P.O. Ackley looked at my Herter set up and told me to give him a resized case and my shell holder. He ground off the top of the shell holder so the sizing die could seat lower and "voila" . . . problem solved.

[adrians]

Tallyman, if all else fails i will be trying that too.
i'm almost there,, so close i can taste it,,