Loading 45-70 for 100 yards and way beyond ...

[rfd]

the rifles are both an H&R buffalo classic and an H&R ultra, and i'm currently using starline brass and federal 210 primers.

i've tested out a number of loads using both trail boss and aa5744 smokeless powders, with 15bhn lead bullets in 405, 500 and 530 grains.

the best trail boss load so far is 13.5 grains under a 405 grain bullet (badman, penn, missouri, arizona - don't matter much which one) and that produces groups from 1.5" down to just under 1" at 100 yards with the ultra 45-70. this is actually a 5 shot 100 yard group with that load ...



the real problem has been with aa5744 - i've tried charges of 26 through 28 grains at 1/2 grain increments under a 405 grain bullet and the results at 100 yards are pretty terrible. i know it's not me or the rifle, so i'm thinking that aa5744, unlike trail boss, may require a filler or wad or something other than just the powder alone ... ?

[1Shirt]

Suggest that with 350 to 425 gr blts, someplace between 22 and 26 gr of 2400 you will find a sweet spot!
1Shirt!

[rfd]

thanx, but i wish to use AA5744, not 2400.

[Bent Ramrod]

A heavier boolit, some judicious crimping, and/or a magnum primer might help with the 5744. A case as short as the .45-70 shouldn't need a filler, but I have used a small tuft of Kapok in long cases with smokeless powders to keep the powder at the primer end of the case.

[Don McDowell]

with the 405 gr bullets 28 grs of 5744 is what will work well.
With the 500 and 530 somewhere close to 25 grs usually works well.
With the pitiful velocity of trailboss, I wouldn't look for many good things to happen beyond 200 yds.

[rfd]

trail boss is great to 100 yards, and sometimes good for 200. that's not the distance or powder for me. i only referenced trail boss for its accuracy at 100 yards as a comparison to the pitiful groups i'm getting with aa5744 at 100 yards. i just don't understand what i'm doing wrong, or not doing, with the aa5744. the "groups" are 6" at 100 yards which is just so not right! i've read where most if not all of the long distance shooters (500, 800 and even 1000 yards) are using either a wad and/filler with their aa5744 loads, just don't know how or what.

i shot 28 grains of aa5744 under 405 lazer lead this morning - miserable accuracy @ 100yds. i change to my go-to trail boss load and the groups were all under 1.5" ... can't figure it out ... yet.

[M Hicks]

i just don't understand what i'm doing wrong, or not doing, with the aa5744.

Sometimes things just don't get along. Your set up might not like 5744. 1shirt has a good suggestion about using 2400. Your rifles may love it.

If you are set on 5744 and messing with a filler there is a good read in a sticky that can be found in CB loads / your favorite cartridge.

Good luck.

[Clay M]

I have been loading 31.5 grs of MP5744 and a 400gr RCBS GC bullet.It shoots good in my Sharps and my Ruger #1.I think the velocity is around 1400fps which is plenty for deer hunting.

[303carbine]

Try IMR 4198, I have tried many powders for the 45-70, 4198 burns completely and gets respectable velocity. What velocity are you getting with your cast loads? If they are not gas checked, they might be leading the barrel and messing up accuracy. remember, speed is not always a good thing with cast as you probably know.Slug the bore, perhaps it is a bit bigger or you need to get cast bullets that are slightly larger in diameter.
I load 30 grains of either 4198's under the 420 cast bullets, a pinch of cotton keeps the powder tight to the primer for consistent ignition.
My rifle is an H&R 1873 Trapdoor Cavalry Model 45-70 with the 22 inch barrel.

[beemer]

I use a 405 gr. boolit , 27 grs. of 5744 and .7 tenths of Dacron as a filler, it is a little dirty but shoots well. Without the filler poi will change depending on the position of the powder in the case. I'm using a Marlin 1895SS.

Dave

[EDG]

5744 may be leaving a lot of unburned grains in your bore with the 405 grain bullet.
Then the next bullet has to run over all of those grains and I know a BC had shallow rifling so that cannot help.
Try wiping or blowing your bore clean between shots. You can also try heavier loads as suggested above. The higher pressure will burn up more of the powder grains especially in the shorter barrel.
Keep the powder back against the primer by tilting the muzzle up before shooting.

[Clay M]

I have had great success with Rel 7 in the .45/70 You might try that powder if you can find any.

[oldgeezershooter]

One word! Varget! 50 gr.

[supe47]

50 gr. Varget under what? I just happen to have scored some Varget in the last couple weeks. I've used Varget for my 308 cast and had great luck. I do believe my Highwall and I will try that.

[bigted]

rfd ... filler ...[corn meal or cream of wheat]... in my 45-70 loads consist of these steps...

1- load my powder charge in all cases.
2- measure the distance from the base of the boolit to the crimp ring or where you will be loading them to.
3- take this measurement and divide it into 3rds.
4- take the 2/3rds of the last measurement and subtract it from the measurement of the boolit needs.
5- fill the case that deep from the lip of the case so that there is the 1/3rd higher then the base of the boolit to be seated thereby compressing the filler by 1/3rd of the needed room when seating the boolit.
6- this compressed load with the filler keeps the powder in the same place every shot so that the powder is ignited and burns the very same every time. this in turn allows the boolit to be shuttled outta the barrel the same time after time. this in turn allows the boolit to be at the very same speed when exiting the barrel which enables it to turn the same rpm to buck the air/wind the same every shot.

this is how I see the filler working for me. I shoot the 5744 in my 43 Spanish and 45-70 as well as occasionally my 38-55. I prefer to shoot pure blackpowder loads or duplex blackpowder loads but the 5744 treats me well in all situations.

[oldgeezershooter]

405 gr. Boolit. Very accurate load.(Out of my Quigley.)

[bigted]

wonder if we lost our OP?

[rfd]

thanx for all your replies, much appreciated.

before messing with wads and fillers i'm going to work on bullet seat depth and cartridge oal - loading up some rounds now that are kissing the lands when chambered.

[badguybuster]

My buffalo classic like Lil gun and unique. Ive found excellent accuracy using a 495 grain spitzer I picked up on GB. But for hunting I really really like the 350 grain hardcast from missouri bullets. Huge meplat and with 15 grains of unique it will vaporize anything up to a whitetail without destrpying yer shoulder.

[Kraschenbirn]

Have never been able to obtain anything better than mediocre accuracy using 5744 with any weight boolit in my 45-70 RB...and I've tried everything I own a mould for: 350, 405, 440, and 525 grainers. My best loads (duplicating BP velocity/ballistics) use AA2015 with the 440 and IMR4198 with the 405. Both will print under 2 MOA out to 300M (the longest range I've got available at present).

Bill