Thanks for the lively discussion gents. Very illuminating. It seems my desire for a projectile that would be cheap and accurate for my purpose might be problematic. For practice I don't need the heavyweight at least for the short line, nor do I need the velocity, but accuracy is requisite. Since I'm just getting into casting (read don't know anything(yet)) perhaps I sould start with something more formulaic, such as for my lever guns and hand cannons.
Regards,
Bill
trench
1. I don't know of any 22LR that wts 60gr? 2. I'm way over 22lr velocity, ruffly 22 Hornet . 3. It's fun to cast for rifles and I have an endless supply of cheap ammo! 4. These will be a great short range varmit/target round! Sometimes one does not want to blow something all to hell with full powered loads! 5. It s a challenge to get a rifle to work with something you've made!
My ar loves the noe 225-70 rn with 20.5 of benchmark behind it
This was shot at 100 yards prone using irons
16" 1-9
target 1 is what i normally shoot target 2 was one of the best groups i ever shot with that rifle
45 2.1
The 9" twist Colt comp will get 2 moa accuracy with 225462 in the 1900 fps range with reliable functioning. The 7" twist Bushmaster will get the same 2 moa accuracy in the 1400 - 1500 fps range with not so reliable functioning. Above those velocities accuracy gets worse, moreso the faster you push the bullet. Yes, useable accuracy can be had at faster velocities but 2 moa is the max for competative accuracy which was the question. Also 20 shot accuracy, or 10 shot accuracy if just used for RF stages, is required. We all know you and "others" can get "great" accuracy at much higher velocities but most of us have not seen it. We also know that none of us have the skill at loading/casting/shooting that you and the select "others" do so no need to rehash that. However, if you want to post some actual details that might be specific then please do so.....oh, excuse me but you'll say it's all been posted before and all we have to do is figure it out.............speaking of "more of the same"........
BTW; I also get the same 3-4 moa with my 9" twists but then those 2 rifles have a 24X and a 10X scope on them. Sorry but I don't consider 3-4 moa out of competition match rifles capable of consistent sub moa accuracy as "doing better". But I guess that appears to be where we differ in opinion....what is "better" accuracy, especially with cast bullets.
Larry Gibson
357 voodoo
Velocity?
Larry Gibson
Nice work................ maybe you should shoot for Larry. Load velocity interpolates around 2350 to 2400 fps in a 20 or 24" barrel (not specified in data).Originally Posted by 357 Voodoo
My ar loves the noe 225-70 rn with 20.5 of benchmark behind it
This was shot at 100 yards prone using irons
16" 1-9
target 1 is what i normally shoot target 2 was one of the best groups i ever shot with that rifle
Too many people here are showing a lot better results than you are........... with fast twist rifles besides myself. Anything from 0.75 to 1.25 MOA is quite adequate for the cartridges potential. Seems you've been busted again.
Maybe that's where we disagree....I measure, 45 2.1 "interpolates"............in 20 or 24" barrels.....not the 16" barrel 357 voodoo used...........
357 Voodoo's load should be 2100 - 2200 fps out of a 22" barrel, much less out of a 16" barrel. Sooooo...as long as we are then interpolating........probably about 1900 +/- fps out of that 16" barrel. That puts it around the top end of the RPM threshold.....be nice if 357 voodoo has actaully chronographed it though as "interpolating" really isn't to valid........just guessing is all........
Got to give 357 voodoo credit where credit is due, iron sights from the AR carbine on a diamond target......oh to have my old eyes back again.........
Larry Gibson
Larry the average velocity when I chronographed this load was 2050.
Thanks for the kudos
Hard to measure someone else's stuff there Larry. You missed it too by the same amount by guessing. I'll trust Lymans data (which I was useing) long before anything you put out. Your useing a lot less the Lymans lab eqipment with real ballistics personnel useing them. A couple people on this thread have outdone you badly so far.
45 2.1
That was exactly my point, guessing is just that....guessing, as it is with your "interpolating". Obviously I made my point.
I don't claim to use the equivelent of Lyman's lab equipment. I do however use much better equipment than the average "chrony" that 99.999999% of other reloaders use. I also use much better equipment than your "interpolating" of Lyman's data. I get a lot of data that most others do not get (velocity at the screens, corrected velocity to the muzzle, time of flight, actual measured BCs, remaining velocity down range, peak preassure, time under the pressure curve and an actual time pressure curve). How much of such data do you get from "interpolating" Lyman's data? And just how reliable is your "interpolation? Obviously no better than mine from the above "guesses" at it.
You constantly say "a couple people" have yada, yada, yada but you do not give not facts or report specifics. You do not also give any specifics on anything you do other than "interpolate". We would all like to see some proof of your claims. Yet we know you will not provide anything as we've been through this too many times before. No real sense going through it again here. I have given loads and facts to back them up here, be nice if you'd do the same instead of criticising all the time.
357 voodoo has also provided some facts here relating to his AR. Though not a .223 he shows what could be done pushing the RPM threshold. He probably would get better accuracy at a lower velocity but might run into function problems. I'm also pretty sure, since his load is not a max load for that cartridge, that any higher velocity and accuracy goes south. I've many times explained how to bump the RPM threshold up to 2000 - 2100 fps with 9 - 10" twist barrels and get the accuracy that 357 voodoo is getting, nothing new there is there? 357 voodoo has done that very nicely.
Perhaps you'd care to show us what you can do with some groups and load data of what you do to get such accuracy with an AR .223 at 2300+ fps? Something positive from you instead of the usual criticism would be a refreshing change....so why don't you just surprise me? Call it a Christmas present if want........
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 12-06-2011 at 08:44 PM.
Someday......... maybe long in the future you'll realize that "I'm not going to do it your way" because your not in control of anybody but yourself. Get over it guy. If you can read and understand, all that you've asked for is in my posts since before the previous forum started. The basic methodology is there and quite clear. Several other people understand it and are useing it now. Comprehension is required to do that..... are you able to understand.
BTW........... the use of medium burning powders are the cause of your accuracy dilemma.
Larry and 45 2.1......... I am glad yall are adverse friends. I dont think I have ever had a conversation with someone with the hidden undertones yall are without either missing a tooth or gaining an extra. Look, girls, you are both pretty. Jeese.... move on. We have gone from helping someone succeed with their quest to digging on each other to make a point. Kinda counter-productive IMO.
I came into this world kicking, screaming, and covered in someone elses blood. I plan to go out the same way.
357 Voodoo's
Dam nice groups! When I was shot my last batch I did it in a pretty rapid fashion to see if I was getting good function. The only thing I didn't get was bolt lock on last round - it was cold so this tells me that at 18.5 it's close to not working so if anything I might go up to 18.7 gr and see if it locks back and doesn't affect accuracy any- who knows it might even improve it some! Ejection was great! Feed was possitive.
Has anyone designed a group buy mold made for the 1:9 twist ar-15's? It would seem to me that most of us here own at least one 5.56 ar platform and most have 1:9 barrels, so a cast bullet made for it would be nice. That is, as long as you can get people to understand that you CAN shoot cast out of an ar-15, and it DOESN'T plug it up. I just ran a long pipe cleaner through the gas tube after 1500 or so cast bullets, and it looked really clean. Dan
BTW- out of all the autoloaders that i've shot cast through, sks, m1 garand/carbine, ar, ect, the only one that I have had lead in the "system" is the mas 49/56. After quite a few rounds, I went to flip the gas switch and there was a little stiffness to it. took it apart and had a little lead around the gas hole. Other than that, I have had flawless function and decent accuracy in every autoloader i've tried.
Dschuttig Im using a NOE gb mould which he has in stock NOE 225-70 RN. When seated to just kiss the rifling with the front driving band it will fill the mag nicely.
Gunnut I have that same problem when the bolt carrier is dirty or doesn't have enough lubrication. when its real cold I use sewing machine oil and apply a good amount.
I think that I'm going to order on of those tommorow. I kinda wondered how that heavy of a bullet would perform.
357 Voodoo
Be interesting to see how those 70 gr bullets do in the 9" twist. Are you going to stick with 4895 or try a slower powder? Contrary to what was mentioned 4895 is considered a slower burning powder for the .223 case. I use AA4350, RL19 and RL22 in my AR loads with the 60 gr 225642s. I wasn't aware they were medium burning powders but they work, be interested to see how they'd do with that 70 gr bullet. From the drawing it looks like the top of the GC may also still be in the case neck with both lube grooves covered by the case neck?
Interesting......
Larry Gibson
Larry Those are the ones that I was using for that target I posted. I've tried 4895 and it gave good accuracy but benchmark out performed it for me. I have yet to try any of the RL powders. I've gone as fast as 4198 which wouldn't cycle the bolt but was a good powder for plinking in the bolt gun. Varget and Accurate 2520 are my go to powders in the 223 they typically give me the best performance but with this short barrel they are way to loud.
Here is a pic showing what this boolit looks like seated to just kiss the rifling. The gas check is just peeking out below the case neck. This boolit is a tack driver in my rem700 .223 with a 1-12 twist at 2700fps loaded with Varget
Last edited by 357 Voodoo; 12-07-2011 at 01:06 PM.
gun nut 45,
Aguila makes a 60 gr. rimfire round. Its sub-sonic so its not germaine to this topic. Just fyi.
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