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Thread: .45/70 Govt. loads for Original Winchester 1886

  1. #1
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    .45/70 Govt. loads for Original Winchester 1886

    I was recently asked to provide some loads to be fired in an original Winchester 1886 Lever Action rifle. This rifle is in very good or better condition but is an early production rifle. Serial Number is 4XX; apparently it was bought direct from the factory by the Utah Prison System and given to an Officer upon his retirement.

    How the rifle ended up here in Australia I do not know but the current owner has a letter from the son of the Prison Officer detailing it's history.

    I have access to Boolit moulds, Mainly LYMAN & CBE, upto 420grs in weigh.

    I would like to load mild charges to protect the rifle.

    Any ideas?
    John, a.k.a. Tiny or Stretch
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    John, sounds like black powder would be the safe way to go, and certainly what would have been used originally. That means filling the case to the bottom of the boolit, no air space. Might be a nuisance to clean the action of powder fouling though...Ray
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    any load you can shoot in a Marlin is safe. Start with that data.

    I own a couple.

    Richh

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The Lyman 47&48 both have data specific to different 45-70 rifles to include the 1886 Win. This is for a 420gr #2 alloy bullet. This is data meant for guns in very good condition only, use extream caution when doing load workup. Hope this is what you need. The $ stands for Poly over powder wad was used.
    Unique $ 11.0- 13.5gr
    2400 $ 21.0- 25.7gr
    SR4759 $ 23.0- 28.5gr
    IMR4227 $ 21.0- 26.2gr
    IMR4198 $ 28.5- 41.5gr
    RX7 40.0- 48.5gr
    IMR3031 38.5- 47.0gr
    Last edited by mooman76; 09-24-2009 at 07:38 PM.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy oksmle's Avatar
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    John.... May I suggest 12.5 grs of Unique with a 350/405 grain PB boolit. With the heavier boolit it approximates the original Springfield "carbine" load for the 1873 trapdoor. I just finished working up a load for a friend's original '81 Marlin in 45/70 using a 355 grain boolit & settled on that charge. Recoil can almost be felt & the 100 yard grouping was outstanding.

  6. #6
    Le Loup Solitaire
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    1886/45/70 loads.

    Hi, I have a low numbered 86 that is in very good condition. It was originally in caliber 38-56 but the chamber had been ruined by someone that tried to pry a stuck case out with sharp tools. I had it rebarreled to a 45-70 many years ago upon the advice given by the NRA technical staff, and have been shooting with it since. The loadings that have been suggested so far are very good and the use of BP is certainly original and appropriate. Several powders work very well. I have settled on 38-39 grains of IMR 3031 which gives around 1200-1250 fps MV which was the standard loading speed for 45-70 back in the day. I use Lyman mold #457124 which is a 405 grain round nose. The mold casts at .457-.458 which is just right so I pan lube the bullets and shoot them unsized. The lube is an alox-beeswax mixture-50/50. The load shoots accurately at 100 yards off the bench. Of course it is possible to load higher...the 86 will handle it, but with 405 grain bullets once you start moving from 1300 on up, the recoil starts getting a lot stiffer too. The NRA tech staff said that I could go as high as 53 grains of 3031 and they stated that it was really "potent". I once tried 50 grains and I assure you that it kicked like some satanic red mule. The crescent shaped buttplate was no help in that regard. I also had a 500 grain Lyman mold #457125 for a while and sold it as the recoil with it even at 1200-1300 fps was literally punishment, and at higher speeds it was just awful to shoot and I dreaded the thought of it. So if you are interested in using moderate bullet weights and loadings the above related information will give you a fair idea of the parameters. Keep it soft and enjoy it. The 86 is a great classic rifle. Good luck and good shooting. LLS

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    405 bullet over 55 [by volume,not weight] grains of 2f Goex black powder,with a wonder wad in between to maintain compression.

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
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    I shoot a powder puff load in a much newer original Win 1886 11.2 gr. Unique behind a 405 gr. cast bullet. Never checked the velocity but it has a rainbow trajectory but is very accurate at 50 yards and mild recoil.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    Smile good oldies!

    Bigjohn,
    You sure came into a couple of classic levers!

    With that low serial number no doubt it was made for BP. No hard and fast date but those made prior to about 1895 are considered BP era and those after 1895 are considered early smokeless. There was some overlap so caution is always prudent.

    So going easy is a very good plan. Have a couple of them. One in BP era and one about 1900 DOM. No matter, I'm easy on both of them. The Lyman Manual, 45-70 Trapdoor Section is a good way to go.

    My favorite load in the '86 uses the RCBS 300 FN GC. (Mine drop closer to 320 grains.) Then over a mild "trapdoor" load of 5744.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    John, In 2000 "Rifle Magazine" had a special issue tittled The Legacy of Lever Guns" it's a good issue if you can get your hands on it. Both rifles you mentioned are well covered along with load data. According to your serial # the 1886 was made in 1886. First year production went from #1-#3211...Ray
    Proud member in the basket of deplorables.

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  11. #11
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    Thank all of you for your help. I had thought about BP loads in both rifles but had to discount it because of the skill level the owner possesses. I don't believe he could clean the rifles and cases well enough.

    As has been said here, these are classic rifles and I want to keep them that way.

    I'm still gathering materials together for the reloading of the cartridges; I will need to buy in some powder for the loads as I do not have Unique or 3031 on hand. It would be better to use one powder for both cartridges as we have a limit as to how much powder we are allowed to keep at home without special licences and storeage.
    John, a.k.a. Tiny or Stretch
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    willyboy

    (405 bullet over 55 [by volume,not weight] grains of 2f Goex black powder,with a wonder wad in between to maintain compression. )

    I'm curious; there are no “universal standards” for volumetric grains, and never were. Black powder has always been measured by weight, not by volume. So, please tell me how you measured black powder by volume.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    well every one says you can load the 86 up to really hot. but even the light 405 carbine load will kill anything here in the U.S. and in Australia. why load any hotter? I would us smokeless loads safe for the trapdoor springfield.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob208 View Post
    well every one says you can load the 86 up to really hot. but even the light 405 carbine load will kill anything here in the U.S. and in Australia. why load any hotter? I would us smokeless loads safe for the trapdoor springfield.
    x2

    i agree with that.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rldarmstr View Post
    willyboy

    (405 bullet over 55 [by volume,not weight] grains of 2f Goex black powder,with a wonder wad in between to maintain compression. )

    I'm curious; there are no “universal standards” for volumetric grains, and never were. Black powder has always been measured by weight, not by volume. So, please tell me how you measured black powder by volume.
    Black powder IS always measured by volume ,buy one of those measuring thingys with the numbers on the side that adjust for volume , I have several .

  16. #16
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    I use 10.5 gr. of Unique behind a 340 and 378 gr. boolit and get 1100-1105 fps and very small groups at 50.

    At long range they may fall apart on grouping.

    Pleasant load to shoot and easy on the softer steel barrel of an older gun.

    The travels that gun has had may make for a good story.
    Amendments
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  17. #17
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    The geometry of black powder itself varies by its own granulation size; Fg, FFFg, FFFFg, and so forth. Trying to measure black powder (or anything else) by its bulk is tricky. Black powder varies all over the place by geometry, moisture content, and even composition percentages.

    Not only does “by volume” vary all over the place by propellant, the volumetric blackpowder measures themselves are hooked to no particular standard. You cannot buy an SAE, ANSI, CIP, or SAAMI calibrated blackpowder measure—no such animal exists. The 10 grain (or 5 grain) hash marks on various blackpowder measures (whether made from brass in Red China, India, or in the US from clear plastic) themselves do not agree on what 100 grains by volume is.

    When I load cartridges for BPCR competition I drop the powder through a tube to settle it. I'm told that some guys actually vibrate the case to further settle the load. So a guy that loads 65 grains of 2f in a 45-70 case and only uses a drop tube when others also use a vibrating machine, now has a different volume of 2F powder but all cartridges have 65 grains. (by weight)

    When I started shooting muzzle loaders 60 years ago I used one of those brass measures with the hash marks on the side. It even had numbers associated with the hash marks. When I worked up a load I varied the plug in the brass tube until I got a load that I thought was the best for that caliber and that rifle. I tightened down the lock nut on the brass measure and when I got home I filled it with black powder and dumped it in a little cup in my "powder scale". In the end I used the brass measure to load the gun but I knew I had 60 grains of powder. (by weight)

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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