.38-40 Load Advice

[chajohnson]

I acquired three old Winchester lever guns a couple of years ago, but they've been sitting in a safe until just this week. One is an 1873 in 38-40 and the other two a '92s in 44-40 and 25-20. All were manufactured c.1890's. Bore rifling is decent on all three and they seem to be mechanically sound.

I embarked upon a hand loading project with these rifles and decided I'd tackle the '73 first. So, I ordered the RCBS Cowboy die set and the 40-180 mould. I also ordered some Starline brass. The order arrived & I'm ready to start casting. I've also decided to avoid black powder due to clean up of the brass, and just stay with smokeless loads. As such, I thought the revival of this thread was quiet timely.

I do have a few of questions, however. First, due to the age of the guns, I thought it wise to stay in the realm of black powder velocity and pressure. With that consideration, I was thinking that my 50/50 COWW/SOWW with a small amount of tin and lubed with NRA formula would be about right. I have quiet a bit of this alloy as it is my goto for cast bullseye pistol loads. These test approx. 9-10 BNH on my Lee tester. Or, should I go with just go with lead or a lead tin mix? Second, the above referenced powders are pretty slow burning compared to typical pistol powders. I have Blue Dot, 2400, & 4227. Should I be using magnum pistol primers to ensure adequate ignition? Finally, has anyone experienced any position sensitivity with these powders?

Ultimately, I'd like to use this old '73 as my 100 yrd. hog rifle if I can develop an accurate load for it. I'm on a deer lease in East Texas where there's a couple of sounders of hog tearing up our deer feeders. I believe that is a capitol offense in Texas and I'd sure like to be judge, jury, and executioner.

[35 Whelen]

I would buy an actual print manual and pass on loading advise on the internet or stick to factory cartridges.

For the less than the cost of two printed manuals, one can have a one year subscription to www.loaddata.com and print all the loads therein. Sort of obsoletes printed manuals.

35W

[35 Whelen]

I acquired three old Winchester lever guns a couple of years ago, but they've been sitting in a safe until just this week. One is an 1873 in 38-40 and the other two a '92s in 44-40 and 25-20. All were manufactured c.1890's. Bore rifling is decent on all three and they seem to be mechanically sound.

I embarked upon a hand loading project with these rifles and decided I'd tackle the '73 first. So, I ordered the RCBS Cowboy die set and the 40-180 mould. I also ordered some Starline brass. The order arrived & I'm ready to start casting. I've also decided to avoid black powder due to clean up of the brass, and just stay with smokeless loads. As such, I thought the revival of this thread was quiet timely.

I do have a few of questions, however. First, due to the age of the guns, I thought it wise to stay in the realm of black powder velocity and pressure. With that consideration, I was thinking that my 50/50 COWW/SOWW with a small amount of tin and lubed with NRA formula would be about right. I have quiet a bit of this alloy as it is my goto for cast bullseye pistol loads. These test approx. 9-10 BNH on my Lee tester. Or, should I go with just go with lead or a lead tin mix? Second, the above referenced powders are pretty slow burning compared to typical pistol powders. I have Blue Dot, 2400, & 4227. Should I be using magnum pistol primers to ensure adequate ignition? Finally, has anyone experienced any position sensitivity with these powders?

Ultimately, I'd like to use this old '73 as my 100 yrd. hog rifle if I can develop an accurate load for it. I'm on a deer lease in East Texas where there's a couple of sounders of hog tearing up our deer feeders. I believe that is a capitol offense in Texas and I'd sure like to be judge, jury, and executioner.

I normally use a mixture of 50/50 lead/WW, but I've used everything from 70/30 lead/WW to straight WW and find little to no difference in how they shoot. I too have an RCBS 40-180 mould and really like it as it produces a heavier bullet which I'll likely use for deer someday.

I tried some 2400 but wasn't real pleased with the resultant velocity spreads. I've used 2400 in .38's, 357's and .44 Specials and it seems to work better at a little higher pressures, at least for me.

35W

[ajjohns]

Mr. 35 Whelen, thanks for your thoughts. It seems for me the only thing I need, that I never seem to find is time. I'll get into it more here soon. I'll try my Unique and some others since I have them, maybe just wait a bit on buying the RL7. Rainy days are coming here soon so I will have to make some time up.

[35 Whelen]

I love daylight savings time! I get home from work in plenty of time to shoot, which is what I did yesterday evening. I recently acquired an older Lyman SC 40143 mould and had cast a small pile of bullets. So yesterday evening I hied off to the bench to lob a few at the 200 yd. gong. The load was 8.0 grs of Power Pistol which nets right around 1300 fps. Results were not so good. Although the next to highest step on my rear sight elevator puts me just about on at 200, I normally have to fire 2 or 3 shots to get an idea of where to hold to allow for our ever present winds. The bullets from the Lyman mould seem to have a mind of their own at this longer range. Just when I thought I knew where to hold, the next shot might completely miss the 22" steel circle. Funny thing is, this load and bullet groups very nice at 50 yds. at around 2" or less and pretty decent at 100.

So I grabbed a handful of cartridges that were loaded with the bullet from the RCBS mould (same powder charge and roughly the same velocity) and tried them. MUCH better! That load shot very predictably.

So, there's a little more info for you guys.

35W

[ajjohns]

I've been handloading for about 25 years. We never stop learning. Though I haven't loaded my stronger 44/40's for too many years, I kinda have a good idea what they like. But with that being said the powder charges and components are little more forgiving in a strong rifle. My 73 Winchester in 38 is in good shape, new toggles too, but I get a little funny feeling sometimes when I read what some are using for their loads. And seeing such variances in speeds with power charges that are the same make you wonder sometimes just what, is going on. That's the biggest reason I ask these things. I'm not too scared or ignorant to start low and work up, just trying to get some good baselines.

[35 Whelen]

There are alot of things that could cause variations in velocities and chronographing cast bullet loads many times leaves me scratching my head.
For example I loaded 8.0 grs. of Power Pistol and the bullet from the RCBS mould which weighs 192 grs. Average velocity was 1302 fps. Meanwhile I cast some bullets from the Lyman mould that weigh 177 grs. lubed and sized. Load them over the same amount of Power Pistol and they averaged....1291 fps. 15 grs. lighter and 12 fps slower. Odd to say the least!

35W

[ajjohns]

Indeed. This is what I mean, and not all times (sometimes there is no rhyme or reason) I would say the people are wrong but it makes you wonder if they're typing the same thing they used. Or maybe thought they used. But I would hope they're typing as accurate as they're load. Knowing all these variables can sometimes get confusing.

PP, this is a powder around the same burn rate as Unique? I've saw this one used in 45 Colt is why I ask, seemed ok there also.

I've read and re-read a lot of Kirk D's posts and he sure looks to have a good handle on the WCF rounds. Pains taken in a lot of his tests are sure some you can learn from. Well, I can't just name him, a lot of you guys on here sure help out for info one would have to learn the hard way or take a longggg time figure out.

Thanks again.

[35 Whelen]

When I got in this evening I just HAD to shoot one of my 38-40's. This time I grabbed the older one, an 1886 production. This ol' girl has seen a lot of miles, wear and tear. When I got it the bore was beyond hopeless, so I had John Taylor line it. The one silver lining is it came with a decent aftermarket tang sight. So off I went to the bench with a handful of the 8.0 gr. Power Pistol loads with the 177 gr. bullet from the Lyman mould, the same load that wouldn't shoot for diddly out of the other Winchester. Once I got the tang sight set for the 200 yd. target, she put shot after shot well within the 12" circle on the target! Oh joy!
I saved three shells and ran them over the chronograph; 1354 fps and an ES of 15. I have no idea why velocity was so much higher than it was out of the other rifle. This ought to be a great load for plinking and practice, at least out of this particular rifle.

35W

ETA- To answer your question about PP burn rate, it seems to be right in between Unique and Herco.

[ajjohns]

I have a 73 barreled action with a barrel the same as you had lined. Corrosion on the breech end, cleaning rod wear on the muzzle end. A liner will be in order when I decide to get it together. Or possibly since I have no rifle in 45 Colt, maybe it's time to get it bored up for that. The barrel diameter on this one is a bit bigger than standard, it's neat looking. I looked at a burn rate chart for some of these powders in this thread, from Titegroup at 26 to RL 7 at 146, there's quite a spread there for rifle loads. Some of the ones in between these two are never really mentioned. IMR 4198 and H-110 are two powders I have that I never hear of being used in the 38 and 44 WCF. I don't know if I'd experiment just yet with that unless in my Rem 14 1/2 and some serious calculating. I understand the theory of slow burning powders and their pressures being down because of the smaller size of charge and the length of the barrel used in burning them. And the higher pressures for a faster burning one in the same weight charge. I don't know, sometimes I may dream too much or something. I work at a job that tries to test the best possible variables in mechanics, maybe that's why.

[chajohnson]

35 Whelen: Where are you crimping that 40 cal Lyman mold? I have that mold & use it for 40 S&W loads. I loaded up some dummy 38-40 brass with it but couldn't it to feed in my '73, unless I crimped forward of the top grease groove. Then, the crimp wouldn't hold with dummy rounds in the magazine. I had already ordered the RCBS mold, so I gave up trying to load the Lyman SWC.

[35 Whelen]

Yes. I seat the bullet to about 1.592", 1.6 being absolute max, and crimp at that length. Normally the crimp holds fine but I did have one yesterday that pushed back in the case. I think that happened because I didn't size that particular case. When I was seating that batch of bullets I remembered one seated really easy, and I bet that's the one that messed up. I use the same method with the bullet from from the 40-180 mould and haven't had any problems.

35W

[FromTheWoods]

Glad to see this thread coming back to life.

I'm down to 18 cartridges left out of approx. 1400 that were loaded with Titegroup. Other caliber testing put the .38-40 on the back burner. Ran a batch of brass in the tumbler last night while cleaning my .38-40/10mm Buckeye.

Seems a bit odd that the Universe would align my lack of cartridges, the tumbling, and then finding this thread resurrected--What is going on here!

[Geezer in NH]

For the less than the cost of two printed manuals, one can have a one year subscription to www.loaddata.com and print all the loads therein. Sort of obsoletes printed manuals.

35W

Uh power down now what. My manuals work with candle or fire light hows your IPad or smart phone.

Want to keepdata HARD COPY means print.

[35 Whelen]

Uh power down now what. My manuals work with candle or fire light hows your IPad or smart phone.

Want to keepdata HARD COPY means print.

Well, first of all I don't imagine anyone would be loading in the dark or without power, but if one wanted to load when the power was out, ALL the data on the site I mentioned is available in printable format. So for example, when I was looking for factory equivalent data for my 45 Colt, I found the data on www.loaddata.com, printed it, 3-hole punched it and put it in a binder. Here's what it looks like:

.38-40 Winchester / .38-40 WCF (Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook) Warning! Notes: cases: Remington Peters; trim-to length: 1.300"; primers: Remington 2 1/2; primer size: Large Pistol; Lyman shell holder: No. 14B; cast bullets used size to .400" dia.; firearm used: Winchester Model 92; barrel length: 24"; twist: 1-36"; groove diameter: .400". NOTE: More cast bullet data available under .38-40 Winchester (Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition) Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 170 Cast #40188 gas check Alliant Unique 7.0 1120 Remarks: sugg. start load 170 Cast #40188 gas check Alliant Unique 10.5 1515 Remarks: max load 172 Cast #40143 gas check Alliant Unique 7.0 1115 Remarks: sugg. start load 172 Cast #40143 gas check Alliant Unique 10.5 1515 Remarks: max load

Problem solved!


35W

[FromTheWoods]

Reloading with no electricity to look up load data?--No problem. Just keep scooting that candle a tad closer to the gunpowder, and PooF, there goes your desire to look up loads.

You fellas need any more reloading tips, I'm here for you.

[ajjohns]

Well over the last week I was able to do up a few loads. It didn't go too bad, but I think I have a little more to do.

1873 Winchester 38 WCF,
Lead was Acmes 180 .401, they were nice average weight was very good and diameter was fine too, some maybe .402 but the lube was all there and loaded nice. they say BHN is 16. I think that's where I ran into trouble later. I'll get to that. I shot all loads through the Chrony, plus Black Hills 180 lead ammo for a baseline. The first loads were with CCI 300 primers. 3 shots a piece ran for speed. 3 shot to the target at 75 yds.

Hercules Unique - 8.5 grs average was 1270 fps
9 grs. was 1410 fps.
IMR 4227 - 18 grs. was 1220 fps.
Black Hills factory 180 was right about the same, average was 1230 fps.

Then I tried Winchester large pistol primers that are listed for standard or magnum loads with the IMR 4227,

18grs, was 1250 fps.

So, It wasn't bad. The 9 gr load of Unique I won't try again right now, I thought it was a little hot. Though it didn't show any signs of pressure.
But, my rifle has a little oops to it. It was previously relined before I got it (this gun is pieced together, by me through ordering parts, assembled to the barreled action I bought) and I think they did a little boo boo with the reamer. I have no idea what the throat measures but the neck area is a bit outa tolerance in diameter to the plus side. I think the Black Hills ammo must be a wee bit softer slug because accuracy is pretty good (1.5 to 2 inches at 75 yds) and any of the handloads weren't as good, in fact after shooting through the Chrony and putting the loads on target for accuracy check they got worse as shooting went on and leading in the barrel was evident. Cleaning the bore, it was pretty dirty. So I think I will try go back to the 4227 powder, lower the charge and try the PSB with it to see if it will seal it up a bit and reduce the leading and bring the accuracy back.

Stay tuned.

[ajjohns]

Well my psb showed up just in time for the weekend. I didn't experiment too much but used the same recipe as the Fellow with the oversized Marlin barrel from awhile back. 17gr of IMR 4227 and 6.5 gr of psb. CCI 300 primer to set it off and did it ever work! I fired four rounds with two sight adjustments until the mosquitos chased me away. At 100 yds, two shots were a bit to the left within a 1/2", adjusted a wee bit too far to the right for the next shot, brought it back for the fourth shot right about as centered as you could get in the bullseye. All were right at about 1300 fps. I'm happy! When I get another nice day I'm going to go for a five shot group and get some pictures. I want to thank all who have done the leg work for these loads, it sure makes for some fun shooting.

[gschwertley]

Two year bump. I was able to get out and chrono a load using Vihtavuori N32C, labeled "Tin Star." In the same class as Trail Boss. No data for Win. 73, I fired these in my Ruger Vaquero .38-40 with 5.5 in. bbl. Bullet was home-cast 180 gr. in RCBS mold. Charge of N32C was 7.5 gr. Speed averaged 874 fps., SD was 12.22. Very clean burning.

[ajjohns]

If that load shoots good to the sights, I'd say you found a pretty good setup. Be neat to try in a rifle.