.38-40 Load Advice

[FromTheWoods]

My sons and I have shot through our batch of .38-40 cartridges. Our Titegroup load is very accurate, but I feel I should heed the cautions and advice received from some of you--scrap the load for a powder that comes closer to Black Powder pressures.

Would any of you share your load data and thoughts on using IMR 4227 with lead bullets for our old '73 DOM=1885?

We will also be shooting these cartridges in a Ruger Buckeye revolver.

[FromTheWoods]

Yes. 1873 Winchester manufactured in 1885=no high velocity loads/pressures. Yes, certainly keep the pressure/velocity down for the aged rifle.

Titegroup is in the manuals, but it is a quick powder; number 19 on the chart I'm looking at. We have shot Titegroup out of the '73 for years, but I'm having the feeling I should move to a "Black Powder" pressure curve--and the feeling shouldn't be ignored.

Many of the manuals don't differentiate between loads for the old '73 and those for the stronger '92 and the new replicas (with 1/2 a clue though, I could determine that!)

People have recommended powders such as Alliant 2400 (101 on the chart) and Blue Dot (94 on chart) because they have a pressure curve similar to Black Powder.

KirkD is trying 2400 now, but the last I have heard is that he is not quite satisfied with it.

Waters in Pet Loads has data for IMR4227, but whether it is for jackets or lead, I haven't noted yet.

We've tried AA1680, but are beginning to see that it is not going to work well in the .32-20, so I was looking for a powder for both old 1873's.

On the chart, these powders are rated close to Alliant 2400:
AA 7, Blue Dot, AA 9, H108, AA4100, AA 410, H110.

There are several along with these that I haven't listed--not familiar with them--maybe a bit harder to find them in the stores?

I'll take recommendations. Just looking for a safe, dependable load for a 180 grain slug in the '73. And another for the .32-20.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Fill the Case with 2F and compress about .1", Soot great in my 3 digit 1894 Marlin. 180gr Big Lube boolit.

Sam

[w30wcf]

I have burned several lbs of H4227 in my '73 44-40 made in 1882 with no problems whatsoever. I would suggest 15-16 grs in the 38-40.

RL-7 is a great powder for capacity loading in both the 38-40 and 44-40 and produces b.p. + velocities at low pressure. A Hercules powder pamphlet dated in the 1990's shows 25.8 grs / RL-7 / 13,500CUP under a 180 gr bullet.
Velocity runs close to 1,400 f.p.s.

In the 44-40 a similar load of RL-7 runs 1,300 f.p.s. with a 215 gr. bullet and shoots well in my rifle.

Also +1 on Muddy Creek's recommendation.

w30wcf

[KirkD]

I might be a bit of a perfectionist sometimes. 2400 is working well enough for me that I am focusing on developing loads for other cartridges right now. My 2400 load moves a 180 grain cast bullet out the barrel at just over 1,300 fps and it is accurate too, in my original '73

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have a Win 73 and have been loading for it with Lyman 401043 a 175 grain bullet and 4227 powder. The first problem is that the bullet is designed for use with black powder filling the case so that the bullet does not set back into the case. If you use smokeless and crimp behind the front band then the OAL is too long and the rounds will not feed through the cartridge carrier. Using a Lee crimp die works with the crimp placed on the mouth of the case, but 38-40 cases are thin and the necks take a beating. I got around this by trimming back the case length so that the crimp could be placed behind the front band. It works and the rounds feed. IMR 4227 is ok, but you have to load within the capacity of the 73. They do not have strong actions and you are best advised to keep velocities around what black powder produced, i.e. 1200-1300 fps. Older Lyman manuals say 17-18 grains gives around 1300 fps. I have used this and it has shot accurately...well as accurately as a 73 can do without any probs. I also use this loading in a Ruger BH Buckeye and it does well. You can go a bit higher (but not much) in the Ruger, but it gets a bit blasty. As other members have indicated; several other powders also do well in this cartridge when loaded correctly and do not put any strain on the 73 action. LLS

[FromTheWoods]

Thanks for the update Kirk. --I hope I wasn't muddling the information you shared with me.

I'd use your load with 2400, except your note on position in the larger cartridge made me think I'd like another powder. On rereading your note to me--it looks as if SR4759 would be a good one to try. (I read your notes before I posted my question. Somehow I missed the SR info. Getting older in the head at times.)

How much wiggle-room do I have on the charts around 2400?
Accurate No. 9 appears to be close on several charts to 2400.

If RL-7 works, that would be good. I have it on hand for .222 loads. It is a bit slower on the charts than what is usually talked about for the .38-40.

[August]

I've been using Trail Boss in the 38=40 for wild bunch competition. It performs consistently and accurately. Leaves the gun clean, too.

If I didn't have this new-fangled (trail boss) powder to use, I'd be using SR=4759. That powder works great in large, black-powder cases.

The gunz I shoot this caliber in are all very expensive (to me) and would take a long time to replace (to say nothing of the gunsmithing that's in them). I wouldn't mess around with fast burning pistol powders in my gunz in this caliber. Hell, I'm sorry I have to run smokeless in them at all.

[John Boy]

180gr Lead Bullet:
17gr 2400 @ 1340 fps - 8,300 psi
8gr Unique @ 1300 fps - 10,100 psi

164gr Lead Bullet: 36gr Fg @ 1230 fps
180gr Lead Bullet: 40gr Fg @ 1320 fps
All loading data from verified reference sources

[Don McDowell]

Technically speaking any smokeless load you find from a source such as Alliant , or Hogdons powder will be operating at the saami spec for the cartridge, which in this case is based on blackpowder pressures.
I've been using Alliants bludot data with the rcbs bullet in my Bisley clone, and getting very good accuracy. 5744 also works well.
Check with Accurate for 5744 data,

[FromTheWoods]

Then, I really don't need to be fretting about my 5.6 grains of Titegroup?!

[Don McDowell]

As long as it's a factory tested load all should be fine.

[cdet69]

Trai Boss seems to work the best for me in this cartridge, aside from actual black powder.

[KirkD]

I'd use your load with 2400, except your note on position in the larger cartridge made me think I'd like another powder. On rereading your note to me--it looks as if SR4759 would be a good one to try. (I read your notes before I posted my question. Somehow I missed the SR info. Getting older in the head at times.).

I still get a pretty high E.S. with 2400, between 63 fps and 95 fps, which is why I would like to figure out something better down the road, but 2400 still gives me my tightest groups. You don't have much wiggle room with 2400. A small increase in powder makes quite a difference in my chronograph readings. SR4759 is a good powder as well. It's increased bulk fills the case a bit better and gives a lower E.S. and accuracy is almost as good as with 2400. My 38-40 SR4759 load is 17.5 grains of SR4759 for around 1,311 fps.

[405]

Kinda hard to duplicate BP ballistics (internal and external) with smokeless. I load light smokeless a lot in old originals including 73s. I do use the chrono when working up loads and closely watch the velocities and SDs. If I see wide swings in either number or unexpected results I know that is not the direction I want to go with that load combination. I try to never exceed original BP velocities and pay close attention to smokeless powders I even try and attempt to use those whose pressure curves seem to be predictable.

The powders I use for all manner of low velocity/low pressure loads are listed from more or less the fastest to the slowest: Trailboss, 2400, Rel 7 and 5744. Trailboss seems to be in a class by itself but 2400, Rel 7 and 5744 all seem to act similarly, depending on the cartridge, thru the lower pressure ranges suitable for the low power, so-called "BP duplication" loads.

In the 38-40 I've settled on Trailboss if for no other reason than the chance of double charge is none to very low plus TB meters accurately and seems to do well with light cast bullet loads in high expansion ratio cartridges like the 38-40 and 44-40.

[FromTheWoods]

I appreciate the input you folks are offering--and the load information.

I'm still learning.

[ajjohns]

I hate to bring back an old horse, but it was a good horse!
I'm wondering about this thread, I look at it quite often. Just trying to get a baseline of components to try as I will be getting back to the loading bench soon.

38 and 44 - 40 is in question here. I have both j-words and boolits, 180 and 200gr respectively.
Have old unique, old 2400 (20 years old), IMR 4227, and looking to try some of the RL 7.
The 38 is a 1873 Winchester, the 44's are one Win 92 and a Remington 14 1/12.
I'm not so concerned about the 44's as they are strong, and I have some experience in this caliber. The 73, well of course not quite so strong but I see some pretty good speeds here. I've saw with my own eyes in articles, write up and such the 4227 powder can range from right about 1000fps to almost 1200 with the use of 18grs. I've saw the same with A 2400, 14grs to the old factory dup load of 16.5 getting around 1300 fps. What's happening ? Powder position, boolit hardness, barrel length?
I think even though my 73 has a liner in it, it's main diet will probably be lead.
I asked via email to the company making RL 7 about why they dropped the load recipes in these two particular calibers and they said it was too slow of a burn for them. Looks pretty good here outa a rifle? Anyway, I'm not trying to hotrod. But as long as I have minimal leading of soft boolits I like those speeds so the sights are printing on par.

You guys are so fun and interesting to read, I love just dreaming up my next "load" of fun.

Thanks!

[35 Whelen]

I recently acquired a couple of '73 Winchesters in 38-40; an '86 production and a '90 production. I've used Swiss 3Fg and Goex 2Fg. Both worked quite well but the Goex was filthy burning. I enjoy BP and don't mind having to clean the rifles at all, but let's face it, cleaning the brass is a headache and disrupts my regimen of load 20, walk to bench, shoot, back to the shop, repeat. Hence my preference for smokeless.

John Kort (See Post #4) is a veritable compendium of information when it comes to the old *-40 cartridges. Per his recommendation I tried Re-7 and was able to easily duplicate the original load (1300+ fps), well sort of, as the bullet, from an RCBS 40-180 mould, actually weighs about 192 grs. Anyhow, the load shot very well all the way out to 200 yds. grouping 8" or less. Not bad considering the horrid sights and my over 50 eyes. But, I prefer to stick with powder in the Unique/Power Pistol/Herco burning range simply because I can get the same velocities with 1/3 of the powder.

Data varies widely with Alliant's being on the conservative side. Ken Waters has done some pretty extensive testing with the 38-40 and recommends 10.0 grs. of Herco under a 180 gr. bullet for the old '73's. I use 9.5 and get right at 1300 fps. With Unique I normally use 9.0 grs. Both these loads are with the 192 gr. cast bullet. I'm not sure exactly how many I've fired, but I've cast two batches of around 300 each and I just noticed I'm about out of bullets again. So that'd be between 500 and 600 rounds although a few were loaded with BP.

I'd suggest a subscription to www.loaddata.com. There's a litany of data available there for the 38-40 as well as just about any cartridge you can imagine.

35W

[GunGuy2756]

Wow. This thread is 5 years old and still chugging along.

[Geezer in NH]

I would buy an actual print manual and pass on loading advise on the internet or stick to factory cartridges.