44 reloading question

[Ghugly]

Hi guys,
Just a quick thought on recoil and accuracy. I have a .44 Redhawk with a 7 1/2 inch barrel and have been shooting the classic 429421 and 22gr of 2400 through it. The gun is heavy enough that everybody that trys it, likes it. The gun and load is accurate. But not everyone can shoot it well. The targets tell the truth.

I had a hundred or so .44 specials loaded with a custom 162 gr semi-wadcutter over a fairly stiff load of Bullseye that I was trying in my Bulldog. Wasn't worth spit in the Bulldog. Four different people shot them out of the Redhawk and just ripped the center out of the bullseyes. I consider myself to be pretty recoil proof and the Redhawk just doesn't have a lot of recoil, but the 162gr load had almost no recoil at all. I was amazed at the difference in the targets at the end of the day. I really believe that the difference was all in the recoil, boom, flash, etc.

[mdi]

I missed what reloading manual you are using. I would suggest Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook if you are going to shoot lead bullets. Follow the starting load data for the Special and the Magnum with Unique (245 gr. SWC, Special, 6.0 and same bullet in the Magnum at 9.8) and you'll get used to reloading and shooting without the Magnum "bite". I used H110 for a while, but I prefer a less "sensitive" powder and I'm loading my Magnums down to mid range levels and it's a bit more pleasant to shoot...

[Blammer]

I have a RSRH and 19gr of 2400 with 250gr is about all I like, and at about 1350 fps it does JUST fine on deer.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd like to interject some of my money here , er, maybe just my .02.

First; W296 and H110 ARE the same powder. This is not speculation this is printed fact and if you call Hodgdons they will tell you so. HP-38 and W231 are also identical and there are also a few others. Hodgdons makes most of Winchesters powder, thus the overlaps.


H110 needs to be loaded in enough volumn to insure that the charge is not laying flat on the bottom of the case to insure there is NO Flashover. Flashover is when the charge is ignited from it's side as opposed to it's end liek if the case is less than half full. The result is a larger surface area burning at once, IE the charge burns from side to side as opposed to end to end, which results in a much higher pressure spike. This is obviously dangerous.

Also H110 needs to burn at a higher pressure in order to burn completely, thus the cautions on down loading. A heavy crimp promotes this, as well as holding the bullets that are on deck in place in their cases. Heavy recoil will cause boolits to jump crimp.

22gr of H110 is NOT a heavy load, and is my standard heavy load for both Rifles and Pistols now. My standard 250gr boolit load for many years was 23 gr of H110 and this was down loaded from 24 gr which was called max in the 30 year old Hodgdons Manual I have. I have seen people shoot bigger charges but refuse to follow down that fools path as there is nothing to be gained.

Here's the deal. try some good midrange loads and many have been cited above. 8-9 gr of Unique is a good place to start. These loads will help you learn to shoot a large handgun in a lot more friendly way than anything you can load with H110. Accuracy is more important than power.

The important fact to take out of MY .02 is the fact that it doesn't matter how powerful your loads are if you can't hit anything with them!

I assure ANYTHING that you hit with a 250 gr boolit at AAAAAAAAAAAAny speed will experience a bad day! ONce you get to 1000-1200 fps there is little more to be gained performance wise and alot more recoil and noise to deal with. Also unless you practice alot your accuracy will suffer with the stouter loads.

In short,, that gun will do 95% of what you could possibly want do at 1000fps. The other 5% can be applied to hunting situations or killing small foreign cars if needed.

Incidentially Blammer has the most complete collection of .44 cal boolits I have ever seen, and I would tend to think he is a rather dedicated .44 enthusiast! However I still crimp my .44's so the boolits don't move. Especially in a tube fed rifle.

Like I said ,,,My .02

Randy

[desertwheeler]

Thanks again, all. I am going to load up some rounds with 8.0 grains of Unique and go from there. I'm anxious to see how they feel.

[krag35]

I shot 7.5 gr of Unique with Lyman's 429667 for a long time. shot good. Now I shoot 6.7 gr. Trail Boss with the same boolit. It's plesant to shoot, accurate, and I certianly don't want to try to catch one.

[desertwheeler]

Loaded up a dozen trial rounds with 8.0 gr of Unique. It's been rainy and miserable so I couldn't check for accuracy but I did fire off a few rounds to see what they felt like. Very mild, like specials, and low muzzle flash. I think I'm going to be very happy with these loads and this powder. I appreciate all of the help and coaching. The next step is to start casting....

[Blammer]

Instead of a crimp I test my boolit tension this way.

Take a loaded round and, with your hand take the cartridge and try to push the boolit into the cast by pressing the entire round, nose first, against a hard surface. If you can't do it, you have enough tension.

I'm 200lbs 6' tall and have fairly good arm strength. (60 pushups in 60 seconds. ) I've not had any issues with boolit set back when testing with this method. Since this works for me, I don't feel the need for crimping, but your results may vary. I'm not against crimping at all, and I feel it does serve a purpose. With H110, I probably would crimp to help ignition and burn.

oh yea, that picture is old, I'll have to update it. I have 5 more boolits that are not shown.

[big dale]

First congratulations of the purchase of a great handgun. My first large bore hand gun was my Blackhawk that I bought not too long after my 21 st birthday. That was a 41 with the short barrel. I had it for about 15 years before it was stolen and it took me about three weeks before I found a Super Blackhawk and I have always had at least one of them since then. I like single action revolvers a bunch and the 44 Mag is my favorite. If you are anything like me you will shoot by far most of your rounds with mid-range loads of about 1000 Fps. I also take some full loads everythme I go shooting. I load Herco most of the time for my mid-range loads and 2400 most of the time for my full loads. Like Blammer, the 19 grains of 2400 is about all of that that I can stand. A pair of thin leather shooting gloves with no fingers help with the recoil. Some like the rubber grips, but I don't care for them on single action revolvers. To help with the flinching you might try loading a cylinder with some mid-range loads , some heavy loads and one or two empty chambers. I find it simple to use a red sharpie on the seated primers of the full loads cause they all look the same both full loads and mid-range loads if I don't.

As you get better with the handgun you will be better able to test the loads for accuracy. I work up loads 1/2 grain at a time and check the accuracy. Most of the time the groups will decrease in size up to a point and then get worse. This is simply the gun telling you where to stop. I have never owned a single action Ruger that will not group between 1.5 inch and 2.5 inches at 25 yards with enough load development. I had one Super Blackhawk that would not shoot 2400 very well, but I found that it did like both Blue Dot and H4227. These are things that you only learn by shooting.

I would advise you to go with something like Starline and buy 500 cases that are the same. All brands vary some and that eliminates one of the variables. If I had done that at the start I might have not needed any more cases for a couple of decades. I guess I forgot to mention that I am now 66 years old and have been shooting Magnum pistols for over 40 years. I also don't hear worth a damn anymore. Wear hearing protection! Some of my hearing loss is also from rock music, loud motorcycles, and a couple of decades working around forklifts in warehouses. I am sure at least some of the hearing loss is due to short barreled magnum pistols.

I like my Lee Classic cast turret press. I would suggest that you also try the auto-disc powder measure. I got the double disk kit for mine so it is closely adjustable. You still need to check what it throws with a scale, but it makes life much easier. I find that the chart is seldom exactly correct, but once you figure it out each chamber is very consistant.

I have been buying my lead alloy ingots from Muddy Creek Sam for some time now and will suggest that learning to cast good boolits will present pleanty of challenges and I think that having consistant lead will make life easier while you are learning. It took me quite some time to learn to cast wth consistant quality.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Manuels are very good and I find the older ones had a lot of information I still use.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale
.

[Mavrick]

I figure the others are giving you new, Welcome To My Night..., oops, I mean Heaven greetings, so should, too.
You've been shootin' handguns for about a month, now. Good. You chose a ,.44 first? Ok. Ya gotta start SOMEWHERE.
A little piece of advice that MAY head off some problems. Instead of using Special cases, use only Magnum, but... use different brands, one for Special, mid-range loads, and the other for Magnum, full-bore loads, especially since your boolits are the same, at least for now.
As many cases as you can afford is good, but I recommend shooting about 50-100rnds of midrange for every Magnum. Midrange will deliver 90% of what you need, but if you bought a Ferrari to get your groceries, you'd want to stretch 'er legs from time to time, too.
If you shoot that much Special loads, you'd form a ring of lead at the front of the chamber, and it's a pain to remove.
The hint to use about 2% added tin is a lot of help. It sure makes the boolits easier to cast. You can buy it here at Castboolits from RotoMetal.
Using a beam-style scales is far easier that a digital, ESPECIALLY a cheap one! I use a digital, but my level of patience is higher than most. It takes a bit of molly-coddling!
Unique is an excellent, popular powder, as is Red Dot, Green Dot, Accurate #5 and #7, Solo 1000, DuPont 700x and 800x, and Trail Boss. When you step up a little, Blue Dot, HS-6, Herco, Accurate #9, and True Blue will give a bit more performance.
WW296, H110, 2400, VVN110, and 4227 will get you all the performance you can stand.
Load your ammo one at a time, until you can't keep up with your shooting, and you'll gradually get confident and get equipment that'll improve your speed.
Enjoy...you're in for quite a ride, if you stay with it. I started reloading when I was 12years old, and I'm now 64. Nobody in my family reloads, so I did it myself.
Have fun,
Gene

[tuckerdog]

imr4227 will give good vel. and operates at a little less pressure than h110 or 2400. all is subjective to each shooter and individual firearm but alloys that lead a little dont seem to lead as much with lower pressure loads and recoil is different more of a push than flip

[desertwheeler]

Thanks, Blammer, Dale, Gene, and Tuckerdog. Your experience is sure welcome. Right now I'm strictly loading magnum cases. Haven't got to the specials yet, though I do have some brass for them. Today I loaded up 36 rounds with 8.5 gr of Unique. I loaded them very slowly, one at a time, single stage, looking in each case to see the powder levels. Slow but I enjoyed it and I'm getting the hang of it. Meanwhile I've been reading lots from this site and from the lasc site. I'll try the gloves you mention Dale, when I try shooting the hotter stuff again. The milder Unique loads are easy on my hand. I'll follow your suggestion about working up to the most accurate load. Thanks again for all the advice.

[canyon-ghost]

Although Unique is an excellent powder, I use 2400 in full magnum loads. I like Unique for 44 Special okay but, when it comes to loads for 41 magnum, it's 2400.

2400 Magnum Powder is it's full name if you decide to try it out sometime.
Just a thought, Good Luck,
Ron

[Three44s]

Your "reloading" education should have begun with reloading manuals ......... lots of reading ..... LOTS!!

Web sites should be second ...........

You Tube a distant third!

You did get lucky and get a good idea on crimping from You Tube but there is a lot of goofy stuff there ........

Reloading and Goofy don't mix well. Sort of like matches and spilled gas .........

Now ........... put that H110 away for a good while .......... Unique is a good place for you to get your teeth cut for now. In .44 special cases ........... 7.5 gr. ........... in .44 mag cases ....... 8.5gr of Unique is about as good as it gets.

By the time you get to 10 gr. of Unique ......... there are other powders that will treat you better (less recoil and more power!!).

Stick with 8.5 for a GOOD while.

Crimping:

Learn it and like it! You need consistent case length for it to work right. That's where most that don't want to crimp are up to ........... avoiding case triming. Trimming is a PAIN but a necessary one to get good consistent performance in a heavy revolver. Also, think of the degree of crimping needed as being in proportion to the load's performance level: As the power goes up .... the crimp needs a bit more "starch". The neck tension does the main gripping of the bullet but the crimp adds the finnishing touch. Nothing works as good as a crimp to keep the bullet from backing into the case .......... look at yours if you doubt that.

Trust me, you don't want any bullet shift back into the casing. It changes pressures with you being clueless (you can't see it because it's happening inside the cylinder as you are shooting...............very important.

H110, WW 296 and Alliant 2400 are performance powders. You are just not ready for them. When the time comes ......... I'd suggest 2400 (more forgiving) ......... you can load it down some ..... SOME ....... but H110 and WW 296 .......... don't ever play around with those ......... the start charge is just that ........... not the middle ........ and you don't want to go lower than the start with these .......... instead switch to another powder to go lower than those.

With 2400, you want to stick with standard primers for performance loading.

With Unique, you can switch to magnum primers to get a bit cleaner if you are around the 44 special 7.5 gr or .44 mag 8.5 gr. level. That said, I'd recommend that you stick with one case or the other! The reason is that over a bit of time, your .44 specials will leave a "crud ring" in your chambers. When you jump to magnum cases ...... IF you don't completely clean those deposits out you can create a bind on you case and bullet. That can raise pressures. What has happened is that the magnum case mouth/bullet junction is riding up on the .44 special crud ring. A wedge effect.

You don't want that!

There are MANY ........... MANY powders ........... and lots of good ones that can even lower your power level further. AS you have Unique, I'd just stick with it as it seems to agree with your ability to handle recoil.



One more suggestion:

You read all the time about newbies getting into a switch this and that and this and that .........

Don't fall into that trap .......... when you change something .............. leave it at that ..... one change at a time ........ steady wins the race!! Patience grass hopper!!!

Best of luck and welcome to Boolits ........... may your stay be fun, interesting and SAFE!!

Three 44s

[big dale]

Since I am pretty good at spending other people's money and this has turned into a pretty good "advice" thread. I will say that I started loading in the early 60's with a Lee "Bang them out" reloader and never did feel comfortable using a hammer to seat the primers. When they started making the Lee hand priming tool I bought one and liked it so much that I have bought several more as they broke or wore out and continue to do so all these decades later. I particularly like the way I can feel the primer being seated and you just don't get that with any of the press mounted priming tools. This comes in real handy when working up loads for full Max loads. I find that when the primers seat way too easily in the cases that the primer pockets have expanded due to too high of loads and it is past time to back way off.

Another way to tell is to measure fired cases with a micrometer to compare case expansion. Most of us learned that from Ken Waters who wrote for The Handloader for many years. There is a two volume set of books called Pet Loads that is a compilation of his articles on loading for various calibers. It is not cheap, but you will enjoy reading these articles and most of the information is still correct. You can learn a lot from Ken's writing. ESCECAILLY GOOD TECHNIQUES.

In all of these decades of loading for the 44 Magnum, I have never bought a single 44 Special case.

I like that you started with a 44 Magnum. If you stick with it you will find that you come around to my attitude that there is little use for a 357 or other sub-caliber revolver. I don't know how many thousands of bucks I wasted to finaly realize that the rocks you shoot at a local gravel pit just outside town don't care which gun you use to shoot a 200 to 250 grain boolit at about 1000 fps. If you keep it long enough you will find that about the only thatnchanges with it is that the trigger gets smoother once you send about fifty thousand rounds thru the gun.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[desertwheeler]

Well, you guys have sold me on 2400 over H110, but not yet, as you mentioned, three 44s. The 8.5 of Unique is perfect for what I want right now....which is to learn the 44. What kind of case trimmer do you suggest? Can the cases be checked visibly or does one need a micrometer? Ken Waters' books sound great, Big Dale. I didn't buy any 44 special cases...but have 50 from a box of factory ammo I had bought and shot. My first bought cases was a bag of 100 new mags recently at Sportsman's Warehouse. Today in the mail I got my extra turret (on sale at Midway) for the press and a powder funnel. The funnel is going to make reloading much easier. My press kit came with the pro auto disk and safety primer, but I'm not ready to fiddle with them yet. There are a couple of things that I have noticed. Just for the sake of learning I have separated seating and crimping into two steps. Even with the crimp backed way off a thin layer of lead is shaved off the circumference of the bullet when I seat it. It's like the seating chamber is a tad too small. Is this a problem? Also, when I was crimping the new cases it didn't feel smooth like the used cases, and I noticed a real thin (barely visible) sliver of brass was being shaved off, but I'm not sure how or from where. I'll take a pic of the loaded rounds. I think my crimp was pretty mild.

[357shooter]

Well, you guys have sold me on 2400 over H110, but not yet, as you mentioned, three 44s.

Using magnum powders, as you concluded, should wait until you have some experience. When you are ready you should try both 2400 and H110 to see which you prefer. I don't load 44, but in 357 I like H110 more than 2400, you'll find there are handloaders that advocate one or the other.

They are both excellent powders.

[big dale]

Well Desertwheeler, welcome to the world of reloading and constant solving of little problems. I don't know if you have read about some of these things or not so I will suggest that you take a pocket knife and tale the sharp edge off the inside of the case mouth. They make a tool for just about everything, but the pocket knife will do the job. The tool used to cost a buck, so my guess is that by now they cost about 10 or 15 bucks and one tool works on just about every case ever made except for 17 calibers...everything for those 17's requires a special tool. You just want to break the sharp edge of the case mouth. The other bit sounds like you may need to re-adjust your expanding die to where it puts a slightly increased bell on the case mouth. Welcome to one of my least favorite jobs and that is die adjustment. That is just part of it. You will also find that in time your seating die will get gummed up with excess bullet lube and it will have to be re-adjusted on occasion.

My case trimmer is an old Forester that looks like a mini-lathe that I bought way back in the 60's, but I have also used those made by RCBS and Lyman. They all work well. I have an old dial caliper that I use to measure my cases and I see when they need to be trimmed. At the mid-range load I suspect that you will never need to trim them again. My 44 cases don't seem to grow unless I shoot a lot of full loads. Once trimmed you will need to once again break the edge of the inside of the case mouth. When they are all trimmed to the same length then the crimp can be more consistant. You also may want to check out the Lee case trimmers. They are not adjustable so they can't get out of adjustment. I don't use them for any of my autoloader cases because they all seem to come shorter that specified and they don't seem to get any longer.

I sure do like the way revolvers take care of their brass. I reloaded revolver cases for about 15 years before I ever considered getting a case cleaner. I found that only necessary when I started shoot semi-autos a bunch. The sand in the dirt has a hardness of 8 so it is very hard on dies.

As always, Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[462]

For a consistant crimp, all the brass should be trimmed to the same length. Look into Lee's case length gauge and trimmer setup, it's inexpensive and it works. You will also need a deburring/chamfering tool, to clean up the case mouth, after trimming.

Lead shaving, while seating, is due to a case mouth that has not be expanded enough, or not enough. Look into Lyman's M-dies.

(These steps are covered in any reloading manual, please get one.)

[44 flattop]

This was a fun thread to read!

My first pistol back in 1978 when I was 19 years old was a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 mag. It didn't take too much time to come up with the load of 9grs Unique and a 255gr cast SWC for 90% of my shooting. I ended up taking quite a few elk with the same bullet and 17.5grs of 2400 over the years. Velocity was a leisurely 1225fps but that bullet always exited elk.

Over the next 25 years I went through a lot of bullet weights and designs, also many many different powders and primers. Now, 33 year later I find myself back to 9grs of Unique behind the same 255gr SWC for 99% of my pistol work and W296 for my heavy .44 mag rifle loads with the same cast bullet. Those two powders and one single bullet handles 99.999% of my .44 mag needs up to and including elk.

44