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Thread: Names of Cast Bullet Shapes ?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Names of Cast Bullet Shapes ?

    I remember reading in Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge by Paul Matthews,
    page 34 last paragraph, about Black Powder Cartridges, that the author spoke of
    a Pope style cast bullet.

    Can someone direct me to more information about various named Cast bullet shapes or designs ?

    All I see on Google is the 'boat tail', 'Spitzer', etc. - Modern stuff.
    http://mathscinotes.files.wordpress....ulletshape.jpg

    Pope Style, Round Nose....what else ? I would like to learn the jargon.

    DoctorBill
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    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    gandydancer's Avatar
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    Harry Pope was a barrel/Gunsmith/long range target shooter from Hartford Ct in the 1800's into the 1900's and was one of the best in the world He made many bullet molds of his on design and many mold makers used his designs and called them a Pope style. he was very fond of the 32/40---38/55 and many others. there is a great book on him called Harry Pope and his barrels. they just restored his home and shop in east Hartford a few years ago. GD
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
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    Then there is also the "Loverin" style boolit. IIRC, H. Guy Loverin was a boolit/mould designer for Ideal (later Lyman). The Loverin boolits were designed, and achieved a reputation for, accuracy. They are easily recognized, having a short nose and many thin driving bands and grease grooves.

    And the "Keith" style, developed by Elmer Keith. There are others which slip my mind.

    Other designations have more to do with describing the shape of the boolit. "Boat Tail" becomes pretty obvious when you see some of the old wooden "speed boats" designed and built by folks like Gar Wood. The stern of the boat was narrowed to reduce turbulence and increase efficiency in the medium. Turned out it worked in air as well as water. "Spire Point" sort of alludes to a church spire, though the term may not be used much these days in describing churches. Lee describes the points of many of their boolits by noting the radius of the design (1R, 2R).

  4. #4
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    It would be very educational and informative if we could associate a picture or diagram
    with these various named designs and/or styles of Bullets of the past generations.

    Many authors give the names, but neglect to show a visual representation of
    those designer's bullets.

    Pope, Loverin, Keith, Postell, I will keep adding the names as more are posted here.

    As a point of General Education on this Thread, if anyone has diagrams
    or photos of any of these different bullet designs or styles, please be so kind
    as to include them in your posts.

    I find the various shapes of the first bullet designs, prior to the modern copper jacketed
    bullet, to be very interesting.
    However, Google doesn't seem to be coughing up any links or pictures for me !

    I want to use a ground down Ball End Mill to cut out an Aluminum Bullet Mould (mold)
    to make my own Paper Patch Bullets.
    Probably on a LEE mold of smaller diameter (inexpensive to do).

    My concern is, what shape do I grind the tip to ?
    There would be almost infinite different shapes to try....

    I am not asking for a multitude of people's personal favorites or endless opinions
    of what folks think I should do !


    Just visual representations of all the olde traditional Cast bullet styles...to educate us all.

    DoctorBill

    PS - I found reference to this book via Google:
    http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Cast-.../dp/B000IBZ0DS
    Look at the names of the authors !
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 11-26-2011 at 01:07 PM.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I too think there should be a "stickie" with a link to a chart with the various cast bullet designs, and abbreviations (FRN, WC, LFN, WFN, etc.) not just names...

    Here's a link to Lyman/Ideal molds w pics of bullets, but only identified by the mfg. number. http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  6. #6
    I'm A Honcho! montana_charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post
    It would be very educational and informative if we could associate a picture or diagram
    with these various named designs and/or styles of Bullets of the past generations.
    Since you started this by asking about the 'Pope style bullet', I plugged those three words into the search box for Google.

    I got this ...
    http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...ling-pope.html
    ... and it includes a picture.

    Of course, Pope loaded his bullets through the muzzle and placed a charged case in the chamber behind it, so it's not a bullet design that lends itself to fixed ammunition.
    But, hey, you asked ...

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Rnfp, wfn, LAN are at least descriptive terms. I can comprehend what they mean in general.
    Luckily I know what a Keith, Thompson, or Loverin look like. Then there's the Gould HP for 45-70.

    I don't see a need for a sticky, get a copy of the Lyman 3rd edition cast bullet handbook. They have a pretty good history of the various mould designers and styles.

    Want real confusion? Go look at Lyman mould numbers, they tell you even less!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Last edited by 303Guy; 11-26-2011 at 05:23 PM.
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  9. #9
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    The Keith semiwadcutter boolit designs have a long nose with a moderately curved side and a relatively
    large meplat. There is a full diameter driving band ahead of a deep, angled crimp groove and
    a single large lube groove with a flat bottomed shape. The two driving bands below the crimp
    groove and the top driving band are the same width. Keith designs never have a gas check and
    are intended primarly to be used for revolvers. Later variants of Keith's designs put out by Lyman
    vary tremendously from the original designs, some with extremely short front driving bands and many
    with round cross section lube grooves. Keith was quite unhappy about these changes. Current
    Lyman production molds are back to a very good agreement with Keith's original designs. Good
    examples are Lyman 429421, 454423, 454424, 358429. Keiths were also typically slightly "heavy
    for caliber", although today the "heavy for caliber" trend has been pushed FAR past what Elmer
    envisioned, so they are not considered "heavy for caliber " today in most cases.

    Thompson revolver boolits are superficially similar to Keiths - being semi-wadcutters, but all have
    gas checks, smaller and unequal sized driving bands, round bottomed lube grooves and usually a
    bit smaller meplat than a Keith. An example is a Lyman 429215.

    Bill
    Last edited by MtGun44; 11-26-2011 at 05:45 PM.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Well, I kin rigcognize a PRS style boolit real quick.

    prs

  11. #11
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    Here goes with some pictures and/or diagrams of bullets gleaned
    from you contributors of information....

    If anything is incorrect or you have better pictures, send me a PM and I will correct it.
    Other olde original styles or designs - please inform me.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Pope Style Bullet(s)



    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Keith Bullet


    Source: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46162

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Loverin Bullet


    Source: http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/....html#post6210

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Whitworth Design Bullet


    Source: http://www.researchpress.co.uk/cgi-b...num=1205360265

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    The Postell Style


    Source : http://www.rustywood.ca/reload-rifle.html and http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...40&postcount=8

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    More to come as I get the graphics....Come back to this post.


    DoctorBill
    Last edited by DoctorBill; 11-26-2011 at 11:48 PM.
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  12. #12
    Boolit Master




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    I really would like to see this stickied once it's done.
    ARMY Viet-Nam 70-71

  13. #13
    Boolit Master DoctorBill's Avatar
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    I ran out of bullet styles and designs....and nobody has come up with any more !

    Come on fellows. Need more !

    I can put up the modern shapes, too - but I need to know those names , also.

    I am not a fountain of knowledge - just of natural gas. Mr Windy.

    DoctorBill
    Obama is my shepherd,
    I shall not work.
    He leadeth me unto Socialism,
    I shall fear no taxes.
    Yea though I foolishly trusteth him,
    he lies unto my face without remorse.


  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    gandydancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBill View Post
    I ran out of bullet styles and designs....and nobody has come up with any more !

    Come on fellows. Need more !

    I can put up the modern shapes, too - but I need to know those names , also.

    I am not a fountain of knowledge - just of natural gas. Mr Windy.

    DoctorBill
    How about Carl F. Hudson designer of lyman bullet #429303 he called it the "Hi-Velo-Pen" (around 1952)
    (for High Velocity & Penetration). 205 grain cast bullet lyman # 2 alloy that would go through 3/16" steel plate looks to be almost the same as NOE # 434/199 gr SP the lyman was also a semi wad cutter bullet.
    I have the load data and other information on it if you need it. G.D.
    "The good sense of the people will always be found to be the best army.They may be led astray for a moment,but will soon correct themselves" - Thomas Jefferson

    I wasn't Born in the south but I got there as soon as I could.
    I like this site. MOSTLY good people. good ideas.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check