1891 argie in 7.65x53 or is it 54?

[adrians]

hi .
just a quick question .
how strong is the argie 1891 mauser in 7.65x54 or is it 53?.
just curios cos i just bought one (1894 manufacture).
oh and what would it compare to balisticaly nowadays,.?

[largom]

In his "Pet Loads" book Ken Waters rates the 7.65 Argie between the 308 and the 30-06. It is a great gun and cartridge with the only drawback being the limited choices in available bullets in .312 dia. Molds for cast boolits also offer few choices. I have the carbine and it is a great little gun.

Larry

[Reg]

With all due respect to Mr. Waters, the 91 should be held to 40, 000 # max.
Works well with the .300 Savage and .35 Remington . The 7.65 cartrige itself is a very good deer round.
The action itself shows some of the finest workmanship ever used on any military rifle but most tend to be a bit soft and they don't have some of the gas handling ability of the later 98 design.
A very usable action within its capabilitys.

[leadman]

I have a couple of these and find they are a great rifle. The case is slightly larger than the 308 and is easily made from any 30-06 or 8 X57 based case. It can be done with the sizing die, but is much easier and faster with the RCBS trim die.
At one time Norma loaded the 150gr jacketed bullet to 2,900 fps, now it runs about 2,700 fps. At one time the cartridge was listed as 7.65 X54, but in the last 20 years or so most call it 7.65 X53. Could be to identify it better from the Russian round.
Most any cast boolit suitable for the 7.62 X54 Mosin or 303 British work in these. Do slug your bore.
These rifles do not have the gas handling capabilities or the later Mausers so if you blow a primer or case it may end up in your face. I have never had a problem in almost 30 years of firing one of these. Knock on wood!

I have taken game including elk with no issues.

If your is still in full military dress and you want to scope it contact the Dutchman here as he makes a great scope mount that replaces the rear sight.

[jonk]

7.65X53.5.... seems the Belgians and Turks rounded down, Argentines rounded up. Same cartridge though, the 53 and 54.

[Larry Gibson]

the 91 should be held to 40, 000 # max

Why?

The CIP (there is no SAAMI MAP for this cartridge) MAP is 3900 bar or 56,565 psi. I have pressure tested, in my M91 Argentine, some Belgian 1935 milsurp and it ran a MAP of 53,200 psi(M43). Argentine FMMAP and SF milsurp also run in the 54,000+ psi(M43) range. Hornady's factory 150 gr load runs 53,400 psi(M43) and Normas older 150 gr load runs 56,100 psi(M43). My own jacketed 150 gr (Hornady .312) with H380 runs 54,000 psi(M43) at 2797 fps from the 24" barrel (photo). My 4 M91 Argentines shoot those with out any problems.

The 7.65 Argentine is very comparable ballistically to the .308W with comparable bullets. It is an excellent cartridge for plinking and hunting with jacketed and cast bullets. I've found that most any cast bullet that drops at .312 will shoot very well in most M91 Argentines. I favor the C312-185 and the 314299 for general loads with the C312-185 cast soft and HP'd for hunting at 1950 fps. The Hornady swaged .32 cal 90 gr SWC or the Lee cast TL314-90-SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye is a very fun plinking and small game load.

Larry Gibson

[adrians]

good to know guys ,
i have quite a few 30 cal molds which each drop different dia so im in great shape .
i think i'll buy a box of norma or privi loaded ammo and use the empties to reload with what i got and see what i can come up with.
first things first slug the darn thing and see what she tells me.
do most reloading vendors have the approprate dies for this cartridge?
thanks guys and have a great thanksgiving,..

[leadman]

Yes, most of the reloading companies have these dies.

Brass is pretty easy to make from the 8mm or 30-06. Also Graf usually has brass and ammo.
Be wary of some of the berdan primed surplus. Don't know if there is any left on the market but some that came out of South America 10 or so years ago was too long from base to shoulder. One of my guns I could gently force the bolt home, the other was a no go.

[3006guns]

Yes, most of the reloading companies have these dies.

Brass is pretty easy to make from the 8mm or 30-06. Also Graf usually has brass and ammo.
Be wary of some of the berdan primed surplus. Don't know if there is any left on the market but some that came out of South America 10 or so years ago was too long from base to shoulder. One of my guns I could gently force the bolt home, the other was a no go.

Yeah, there's some left alright. I've got three unopened cases of 7.65 (in clips) stored right now. It's still good, nice brass and berdan primed but brother is it hot! I wouldn't dare shoot this stuff in an 1891. Even in my 1909 I make it a practice to pull the bullet and reduce the charge by about 5%. Now if anyone imports a bunch of berdan primers.............

[adrians]

leadman thanks for the headsup on the berdan surplus.
i only intend to shoot cast in this rifle ,,,well all my rifles eat cast anymore,i dont think any copper has been down any of my bores for a long while now except g/c's.
no i tell a lie i shot some rem 303 brit a month or so ago (it was gifted to me ).
now i'll shop around for a set of dies, rcbs are generally my go to dies.
have a great night .

[Reg]

I have always just used Norma and also have made up hundreds using Ball M-1. With the military though do drop the loads by 10 percent. Military brass is made thicker reducing the internal capacity.
If you want speed in making cases, get a RCBS file type trim die, use it for the first form, cut off, file to length, chamfer ID and OD then run back through a FL die. You can make up hundreds in a evening.
Last batch I ran I also neck annealed before loading. May not have been necessary as most case failures I have ever had have been head seperations but then only after 15 to 20 reloads.
It's very common to get 1 inch groups @ 100 yds using a good 150 grain jacketed bullet if your bore is even half way decent.

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah, there's some left alright. I've got three unopened cases of 7.65 (in clips) stored right now. It's still good, nice brass and berdan primed but brother is it hot! I wouldn't dare shoot this stuff in an 1891. Even in my 1909 I make it a practice to pull the bullet and reduce the charge by about 5%. Now if anyone imports a bunch of berdan primers.............

Do you know the headstamp/lot of that "hot" ammo?

Larry Gibson

[blastit37]

how deep do you guys seat the bullets? It seems the 91's have a very deep throat and a 150 would require a heckofa jump.

[adrians]

on all my old-er rifles i will "breechseat' a dummy round .
use an empty case flare the neck a tad to allow you to finger seat the boolit so it is somewhat secure enough so as to stay in position and put in the mag " if it isn't too long " and gengly close the bolt and lock it , then gently open and retrieve the round to see if there is any rifling marks ,if so put in your press and gently raise the ram until you feel the seating stem contact the boolit then lower and screw down the adjusting screw about 1/2 a turn ( or so ?) this will seat the boolit deeper so as to have it just off the lands,,,,,,, some folks like to have the lead touching the lands .
i just prefer mine a gnats hair off the lands.
your rifle will tell you what it likes and how deep it likes to be seated .
mark and save the "dummy" or take measurements and that will be the designated cartridge dimentions for that particular rifle /chamber.
if i gave any missinformation here there is plenty of well learned folks here to give you the correct way to do this .
i consider myself a minnow in this casting pond and i have learned a ton of great stuff from bigger fish in this lake ,thanks to all of them by the way .
have a great turkey day folks.
adrian.

[Larry Gibson]

how deep do you guys seat the bullets? It seems the 91's have a very deep throat and a 150 would require a heckofa jump.

Yes, the M91/M1909s have long throats like many milsurps of that era. I seat the 150 gr Hornady .312 SPs to 2.96 AOL which gives just at 1 caliber seating depth into the case. This gives proper case neck tension on the bullets. With cast I seat the bullets so the lube grooves are inside the neck if possible without the top of the GC being below the case neck.

With a proper fit to the throat I've found it doesn't matter if the front driving band is against the leade or not. This is especially the case with longer cast bullets such as the 314299 where the bulet nose is into the rifling and supported.

The 314299 is an excellent cast bullet for the 7.65 Arentine cartridge, about the best of the "heavies" in my opinion.

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

Adrian,

I had a 91 an Argentine Carbine at one time, but sold it as it had been chopped by Bubba. I still have my 09 Argy Engineer's Carbine and have been reforming R/P 30-06 brass for it for so long, that I wouldn't even think of buying the Prvi brass.... to much investing in my reformed stuff.

I shoot Lyman 314299 resized to .313 with various loads that range from 1200 ~ 1800 fps. It shoots better than I can hold with those military sights.

The Argentine Mausers are very well made, especially the Lowe versions. My '09 is an FMAP, but it's seems to be well made also.

[PatMarlin]

I'm still cleaning the bore on my M1891 Lowe.

Bunch of lead fouling over copper. Then hours on my Outers Foul Out cleaner for copper. Now- I think there's another layer of lead that was under the copper. Bore is bright, smooth, and shiny so I think it's going to be a good shooter, when I get around to shooting it ...

[MtGun44]

Ah Pat,

Embarqued on one of the "great milsurp archeologic digs" trying to find the bottoms of
the grooves! Been there, done that a couple of times. You can often get an amazing amount
of crud out of a "clean looking" barrel.

Bill

[PatMarlin]

Yaw- My Outers earned it's keep this time. Probably about 30 hours total on copper.

[adrians]

well guys my argie is in the mail (gunbroker buy) so i don.t know the bore condition but the description (if true) said it was clean, no pitting and sharp rifleing,,,we'll see.
i just got my 316299 from NOE to use in my 303's i will size down for the argie, but i have enough molds to get a good heavy boolit for it.
will have to chamber cast and everything ....
can't wait to get it and play .
pat this one is a lowe ,

mike i reform my 8mm from 30-06 and never even thought about doing the same for the 7.65 ,you just saved me a few $$$ on the norma and privi idea, thanks bud,
have a good thanksgiving and be safe,, that turkey can hurt ya.