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Thread: Cast Bullet Loads for Military Rifles - Article

  1. #81
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    In my experience down-loading aerodynamic models for spark photography in the .50 BMG, we used 4198 with good results, having no trouble with the case volume as long as the charge filled 50% or more of the available powder space. We used 110 grains of 4198 with the APIT M20 bullet to simulate the trajectory of the spotting round used for the old 106mm recoilless, but in the full sized 12.7x108mm case.

    I agree that 3031 and slower powders do not tolerate airspace exceeding about 30%. I can tell you that 20 grains of Unique will drive the APIT M20 out the barrel of an M2HB, (if you oil the bore first!) ignite the tracer element, is "quiet" without a can, and shoots on at 200 yards with 1000 yard sight dope. It is a manual feeder, of course.

  2. #82
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard DIYGunGuy.

    The 'fast' pistol powder cited (2400) is not what I would call a fast pistol powder. I would call it a slow pistol powder and I believe it is known to be unsafe in small charges. The only fast pistol powder blow-ups I hear about (and they do come up from time to time) could be put down to double charges. I do have experience with fast pistol (shotgun actually) powders causing high pressure in the neck region. And there is a case filling fast powder available - Trail Boss. It's a bit fast for my liking though.
    IMR Trail Boss is a bulky powder created in 2005 for use in older cartridges.[7] Old cartridges designed for black powder have a lot of empty space when using modern smokeless powder thus raising the danger of detonation of the powder. IMR created Trail Boss to be bulky enough that handloaders are not able to accidentally double-charge a cartridge. The unique donut-shaped grains are part of what make the powder so bulky.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 09-26-2014 at 03:19 PM.
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  3. #83
    Boolit Master 4570guy's Avatar
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    2400, 5744 and 4759 all have about the same quickness and all are excellent powders for reduced loads in rifle cases. I've never heard of a SEE event with powders in that burn rate region. As you stated, blow ups with fast pistol powders are most likely double charges. I just don't see the physics and erratic burn characteristics that are described in Pressure Factors occurring with the faster powders.

    The nice thing about the three powders mentioned above is it would be difficult to double charge a case without noticing it.

  4. #84
    Boolit Master bullbarrel033's Avatar
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    Having a blast with my M44 Nagant carbine! My load is the Lee 312-155-2R ontop of 20 gns of AR2205 (IMR 4227) with gas check sized to .313" as my mould drops a shade over .313" Not had much to do with the 7.62X54R, as it is my first rifle in this calibre, but I love it! Very accurate, with the above mentioned load! Its my new 100M comp. rifle! Its definitely a keeper!
    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HIT THE CENTRE OF THE TARGET IS WITH A CENTREFIRE!!!

  5. #85
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    This was an interesting article! Surprisingly, I found this on the Internet under a search I did on Reloading for the the .303 Brit.

    Gosh,,, it was right here at Cast Boolits.com,,,, my home away from home.

    In 2 hours of "computer research," I have failed to come up with anything even remotely as relevant as this article. Lots of little bits and pieces written by so called experts which lack the depth to be of use to anyone above beginner. Nothing at all using Cast Boolits.

    I learned a lot from this article, and now I know where everyone always comes up with 16 gr of 2400 as Cast Boolit load for .30 cal rifles..

    A good read and I even printed it out to go in my loading binder for future reference.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 10-06-2014 at 12:11 PM.
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  6. #86
    Boolit Master
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    Very good and interesting article.

    I have loaded a lot of rounds with the German H&N copper plated HS bullets (165 and 180gr.) in a Swiss IG11 and an US Modell of 1917, using the here-popular Vithavuori N110, with max OAL and max powder loads of up to 21grs., with pretty much success.

    Now, as being a caster on my own and do coating since some months for pistol cartridges (love it), Im thrilled to try coated boolits in those old service wood-slats.
    Never tried and needed GC-style boolits, and having no idea if I can apply GCs in my star sizer, so I would try some without a GC.

    Is anyone inhere having experience with that?
    Which mold would you recommend therefor?

  7. #87
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    I was looking for a load for my 8mm Mauser using a Lee 175gr bullet. I was wanting to use 4320 since I use it in my 303 with good results. I can't seem to find any load data for it though. Any suggestions?

  8. #88
    Boolit Master
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    Just had a blast over the chronograph with my K11 in 7.5x55 Swiss - some pretty standard 12-14gn Unique loads to get some data, and then "just to see" I loaded 10 rounds of 160gn 311672 over 43gn N140, i.e. the starting load for that powder with a 167gn Scenar.

    Did 2415 fps (about 120fps more than the data states for the Scenar), no leading (praise be to a properly-fitting bullet and Carnauba Red).

    Was shooting standing offhand at 25m, so no accuracy data, but it seemed OK.

    The aim is to shoot lead in that rifle at 300m during the course of the year.

  9. #89
    Boolit Man

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    Ok so now I'm a member of the reduced load in military rifles club ... For me it was 8 g of BE under a Lee 312-155- 2R (range scrap GC , PC and sized .309 at 162g) in a M1903 (circa 1934 with an original and beat up 4 groove barrel) Rang in at 1250 fps avg SD 6 with a group under 2in at 50 yards of a rest w/ battle sight POA=POI. Not a flake of PC showed in the bore in 20 rounds.
    Just for a kick I loaded some Lee 314-90-swc (range scrap, PC, sized .309 at 94g) over 3.5 of BE for 960 avg . Sub 2in at 50 off rest Battle Sight POA=POI.... boy oh boy did they look ridiculous stuffed into that 30-06 case... but ... I will tell you this ..I giggled when they went off.

    I do have questions.. The article discuses "shoulder setback" and to enlarge the flash hole to prevent it... Can someone explain "shoulder set back" and opinions on enlarging the flash hole or not. I seem to recall someone on here doing a test with drilling ... but I can't find it again.

    Ed

  10. #90
    Boolit Master
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    I can't say I've ever had a problem with shoulder setback, but if you're worried just fire a hotter load in the cases every few loadings (full-power, or even a 16gn H110-type load will do it). Job jobbed. Saves having to worry about segregating cases that might be iffy with standard loads.

  11. #91
    Boolit Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoats View Post
    I can't say I've ever had a problem with shoulder setback, but if you're worried just fire a hotter load in the cases every few loadings (full-power, or even a 16gn H110-type load will do it). Job jobbed. Saves having to worry about segregating cases that might be iffy with standard loads.
    Well that sure is simple enough to do ... I like it ... thanks

  12. #92
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashguy View Post
    Well that sure is simple enough to do ... I like it ... thanks
    I like simple

  13. #93
    Boolit Mold
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    I like to refer to the C.E. Harris article when developing light loads for my Mausers and 1903 Springfields. It is a very useful article. I thought I would see if an economical, locally available bullet would work in my 1903. I loaded some 115g lead S&S Casting bullets with what little Trail Boss I had left and was able to shoot 2" groups at 50 meters with my 1903A1.

    Finding Trail Boss, Bullseye, 2400 or other cast load powders in my area is like trying to find a Leprechaun. IMR 4895 is easy to find, so I picked up a pound for testing.

    I thought I would chronograph some loads to see if I could hit the 1,050 fps mark. I loaded 10.0g IMR 4198 with a S&S 115g bullet and a Winchester Large Magnum Rifle Primer both with and without filler. The load without filler chronographed HV-1090 fps, LV-996, AV-1043 fps, ES-94 fps and SD-35 fps. The velocity was all over the place, which probably won't help accuracy very much.

    Then I loaded the same cartridge and added 40g of corn meal for filler. I was surprised that the average velocity increased 135 fps. The ES and SD tightened up a bit as well. I chronographed HV-1200 fps, LV-1162 fps, AV-1178 fps, ES-38 fps and SD-14 fps. Once I have time, I am going to load up some more rounds with corn meal filler and test for accuracy at 50 meters.

    I noticed that Laser Cast has 170g bullets sized .310" available and thought about giving them a try. Has anyone tested IMR 4198 with 170g lead bullets without a gas check? What were your results?

  14. #94
    Boolit Mold
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    Update: I tested the same loads both with and without corn meal as filler today. I shot groups at 50 meters.

    Load 1-10.0g IMR 4198 + 115g SNS lead bullet + WLRM primer @ 3.000" C.O.L. without any filler printed a 3-1/4" W x 4" H group.

    Load 2-10.0g IMR 4198 + 40.0g corn meal + 115g SNS lead bullet + WLRM primer @ 3.000" C.O.L. printed a 1-5/8" W x 1-5/8" H group.

    Filling the case with corn meal, Cream of Wheat, whatever makes a huge difference. One thing I learned is that my electronic RCBS powder dispenser does not dispense corn meal well, so don't bother trying.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master corbinace's Avatar
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    certainly nothing for this new caster to add to the discussion. I was just bookmarking it so I know where to find it there is so much good information here.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master quail4jake's Avatar
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    Thank you, Mr. Harris! Why re-invent the wheel when our patron saints of the ancient order of plumbum have already done so. May the sacred silver stream ever anoint you! New year...I better go pour a hot one. Thanks again, from the north woods of Pennsylvania.

  17. #97
    Boolit Mold
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    Would anyone have data for a 185gn bullet (c312-185-1r) using H4895 for .303?
    Cheers guys

  18. #98
    Boolit Man
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    Hi Dave, most start at 25.00 grains and work up, I have heard from a few sources 27.00 grains is a good load,
    Cheers
    Robert

  19. #99
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi View Post
    Hi Dave, most start at 25.00 grains and work up, I have heard from a few sources 27.00 grains is a good load,
    Cheers
    Robert

    Many thanks Robert, I will give it a go
    cheers
    Dave

  20. #100
    Boolit Master res45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNZ View Post
    Would anyone have data for a 185gn bullet (c312-185-1r) using H4895 for .303?
    Cheers guys
    Dave I'm using the exact same bullet in my Mosin along with H4895 as well. H4895 can be safely reduced down to 60% of the original MAX load an used as a starting load and worked up for best accuracy/velocity without using a filler. Using data from the Hodgdon basic online reloading data I selected the 190 gr. jacketed bullet load for the 54r which was 42.2 grs. and reduced it down by 60% which gave me 25.32 grs. so I just used 26 grs. as a starting load and loaded up a series of test loads up to 33.0 grs.

    The Lee 185 gr. bullet dropped close to .314" out of my mold using clip on wheel weight with a bit of tin and water quenched straight from the mold. They were sized in the .314 sizer,gator checked and lubed with Lars 2500+ using my RCBS Lube A Matic an seated out as far as I safely could although it still not that close to the leads in my deep throated rifle.


    At 33.0 grs. velocity on the chrono ran just a little over 1700 fps. with groups measuring about 1" with the iron sights at 50 yds. I still have room to go up an plan to shoot another series of test loads next weekend. I should be able to hit the 1900 fps. velocity range using the powder/bullet combo in the 1:10 twist bore an still retain good accuracy,we will see. I think a similar approach would work for you as well.

    The heaviest jacketed bullet listed on the Hodgdon site for the 303 Brit is 180 grs. but your going to be starting with at 60% reduction of the Max load for that bullet weight which is 38.0 grs. which equals to 22.8 grs. I would probably just start out at 25.0 grs. and work up slowly. I got pretty sooty case necks till I got enough load pressure to start sealing them properly there also wasn’t much of any noticeable difference between the Min & Max test loads accuracy wise,but as the load density went up the velocity swings levered off and the ES & SD numbers got much lower which they should have.
    Last edited by res45; 11-12-2016 at 09:37 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check