45 Long Colt Woes

[Dixie Slugs]

There are a great many shooters that load their early Colt SA's and replicas down to the psi suggested for black powder guns.
Thats all well and good......but smoky cases are the norm!
Why.......simple! 45 Long Colt cases of today are made as strong as 44 Mag cases due to the stronger Ruger guns. They just do not expand at the low 11.500 to 12,000 psi!
We have been testing both the Kirst and R&D conversion cylinders in the Ruger Old Army amd the Uberti 1858 revolvers (and Carbine).
No matter what powder we use for these situations we still get smoky fired cases! We even tried to aneal (sp) the case mouth, but it did not help much.
The answer...I suppose we will just live wieh it....James

[geargnasher]

No, James, you don't "just live with it". You either use a Lee 45/70 sizer die or RCBS Cowboy sizer die and just "neck" size the brass enough to hold the largest boolit that will chamber. Use soft boolits, like 7-9 bhn, let the cylinder throats do the sizing.

Most of the soot problems I experience in my guns are due to grossly oversized chamber specs and minimal spec sizer dies. At low pressure, under 11K psi, the brass will expand just fine if it's fairly snug in the cylinder to begin with, but if it has to grow .020" or more to seal the chamber, it will never get there.

Gear

[Wally]

I use an RCBS steel sizer die in the .45 Colt. It sizes the neck and works just fine for my Ruger Blackhawk reloads. This will solve the smoky fired case problem for you.

[prs]

I've been the route on this because I shoot 45 Colt with black powder in lever action Marlin. Luck has it the Marlin fire formed brass and my Ruger Vaquero fire formed brass are almost identical. "Neck sizing" only with RCBS Cowboy dies is quite good and I used 454 boolits and expander intended for .454 lead boolits. An even larger outside diameter sizing die is the Lee carbide factory crimp, with the crimp component removed, of course. If I may be shooting in other revolvers where the fit is too tight for Marlin/Ruger fire formed, I use the Lee cfc die set to full length. This eliminates almost all of the blowback, esp true fire formed brass.

prs

[sqlbullet]

This advice will make your brass last a lot longer too, since you will work it less.

[Dixie Slugs]

Excellent answers indeed! The basic problem is most reloaders do not have the know-how of this group!
If we go this route of only neck sizing. the best way would to have the sizing die modified for neck sizing only. Then the decapping pin would be at a correct depth.
While the folks here know how to solve many problems on relaoding, the big outside group of reloaders do not.
Regards, James

[USSR]

If we go this route of only neck sizing. the best way would to have the sizing die modified for neck sizing only. Then the decapping pin would be at a correct depth.

No need to modify the sizing die. Simply use a Universal Decapping Die, and then it doesn't matter where the decapping pin is in your sizing die.

Don

[canyon-ghost]

The basic problem is most reloaders do not have the know-how of this group!

The biggest cast bullet site on the web and has the greatest bunch of guys that are probably doing exactly what you are working on!

[MtGun44]

+1 on old RCBS steel dies.

OK, let's have a show of hands.

How many know that .45 LC is a tapered cartridge, not a straight case? Might this
have something to do with why carbide dies don't really work all that well? Yep.

Bill

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Wow, great idea, neck size the brass. Why did I not think of that?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

How many know that .45 LC is a tapered cartridge, not a straight case?
Bill

*raises hand* Are modern steel dies tapered or straight?

[prs]

Dixie, as Buckwheat would say, "Dat be ET"." All you have to do to deprime and "neck size" in station 1 is to use the deprime pin from a universal deprime die in your regular die (not sure this can apply to the Cowboy die set as they may not have a londer deprime pin that will fit, but any machinist could remedy that).

prs

[PatMarlin]

There's an article on this in the current Handloader.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Dixie, as Buckwheat would say, "Dat be ET"." All you have to do to deprime and "neck size" in station 1 is to use the deprime pin from a universal deprime die in your regular die (not sure this can apply to the Cowboy die set as they may not have a londer deprime pin that will fit, but any machinist could remedy that).

prs

Another great idea! This thread is stickie worthy IMHO.

[prs]

+1 on old RCBS steel dies.

OK, let's have a show of hands.

How many know that .45 LC is a tapered cartridge, not a straight case? Might this
have something to do with why carbide dies don't really work all that well? Yep.

Bill

I could not raise my hands as I did not (do not yet) know that. I just did a quick google on it and the results were mixed. I may have to get up of my fat **** and go read the specs in a real book. My Winchester, Remmington, and Starline cases; all modern manufacture, seem to be quite straight. My Ruger cylinders seem to possibly hasve a very slight taper, but I would have to cast them and measure the caste to be sure. Hmmmmmmm.

prs

[PatMarlin]

Just measured Starline 45LC once fired. .477 from base to mouth. Raining and to cold to go get a new Starline 45, but I measured a new Starline 454 Casull, and it's .475 from base to mouth.

[prs]

I checked my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and the SAAMI dimensions are NOT indicated to be tapered. Same with Modern Reloading. A brand spanky new case from Starline in 45 Colt measured .477" all allong the case except the area right at the web was a thou or so smaller. A fire formed case from my Ruger Vaquero, such case also a Starline, measured within plus/minus one thou or .478 from mouth to close to the web, the web area again a tince smaller. So, I still can't raise my hands based upo my limited resources, but I bet you guys can tell me "the rest of the story".

[JRR]

I've been harping on this for years. The specs. for the brass are different then the specs. for chambers. The chamber specs. are tapered by a few thousands. Some years ago a writer in "handloader" figured this out and had RCBS make a custom die that gave proper neck tension and a larger base size. TAPERED. I got one and have been happy ever since. The cases must be lubed due to not being carbide. You cannot have a tapered carbide. New Starline cases are straight and must then be fireformed to get the proper taper. After that the RCBS die can be used to give the proper dimensions. This tapered steel die is available from RCBS. Not sure about other brands.
Jeff

[PatMarlin]

A fire formed case from my Ruger Vaquero, such case also a Starline, measured within plus/minus one thou or .488from mouth to close to the web, the web area again a tince smaller.

Wow- .488? My Blackhawk fired was .477. I never measured my throats now that I have pin gages, but that .477 looks good.

[prs]

Wow- .488? My Blackhawk fired was .477. I never measured my throats now that I have pin gages, but that .477 looks good.

Sorry Pat and others, that was one of my too frequent type-Os. I corrected it to read .478".

prs