Paper Patching 45-70 Gov ?? Trapdoor Rifle

[DoctorBill]

I just bought an H&R Inc 45-70 Trapdoor Black Powder Rifle - NEW - at a gun show.
It has never been fired from what I can tell by looking at it.

That company went out of business in 1987 from what I can glean off the Internet.
In business for 115 years - Worcester, Massachusetts.

Wonder why ?



A big 'P' on left side of receiver and on the underside of the butt end of the stock.

???????



Is/was this a good rifle ?

I am wondering if I can Paper Patch for that caliber ?

DoctorBill

[elk hunter]

DocB,

Nice carbine.

I never owned an H&R trapdoor, but can't help but think they would be a good shooter.

PP bullets should work fine. Since the government carbine load was standardized at 55 grains of powder and a 405 grain bullet, to reduce recoil, I would look for a heavy weight bullet for the 45 Colt at .452 diameter and patch it up to .458 or so, and go have fun.

[Good Cheer]

My brother worked the kinks out of paper paper for his 45-70, a scoped 1885 High Wall. And then it was stolen along with almost everything else. But, he had developed rather punishing pure lead paper patched hunting loads that printed groups of less than one bullet diameter at over 100 yards. So, yes, it can be done with much success. I was always afraid he was going to give himself shaken baby syndrome.

[Don McDowell]

The original Sharps 45 2.1 load was a 420 gr patched bullet on top of 75 grs of powder.
I shoot a .444 diameter 420 gr bullet patched with 9lb onionskin,a 060 fiber wad a 1/8 in lubed felt wad and a .030 fiber wad, over 72 grs of 2f. I can shoot several rounds before it's necessary to swab the bore or use a blow tube.

[scattershot]

Beautiful rifle, you don't see them in that condition very often.

[DoctorBill]

I bought the LEE 3 DIE Set today for $25, the LEE Case Trimmer for $4 and
50 Winchester Brass Cases for $39 from our local Discount Sporting Goods store (White Elephant).

My God, have Brass prices shot up ! (non-ferrous metal prices went way up).

We need a new President, a new Congress and some intelligence in Washington, DC !

My machinist friend, Gary, says that according to an author named Wolfe,
I should shoot soft bullets instead of wheel weight bullets.

Wolf says accuracy goes to Hell with wheel weight bullets in the 45-70 rifles.

I have some .457-450 GG Bullets made from wheel weights ready to load !

Is this rubbish or not ?

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Paper patched bullets don't make much difference, shooting grease grooves it may or may not.

[DoctorBill]

What 44 cal bullet mold are you using ? Lyman, RCBS, etc ?

LEE does not make a large 44 caliber rifle bullet mold for a paper patched bullet.!

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

in a previous life, a friend of mine showed me one of these

I had an original 1873 at the time so passed when he told me the seller had another. IIRC, the price back then was around $400.

I should have bought it. it was a fun gun to shoot

hindsight is always 20/20

[Don McDowell]

I'm using a nosepour adjustable mould from Old West bullet moulds in Fruita Co.

You can get some swaged bullets in that weight from Buffalo Arms.

[montana_charlie]

I bought the LEE 3 DIE Set today for $25, the LEE Case Trimmer for $4

Don't be trimming any 45/70 brass until you have fired it, and then only after you know how deep your chamber is.

'Short' cases can cause leading with grease grooved bullets, and paper rings shaved from patched ones.

CM

[Lead pot]

Please someone tell me why a WW bullet wont shoot good???

I been using WW and WW mixes along with pure lead tin mixes all my shooting life and I cant tell the difference in there performance.
When I read comments like this makes me wonder if they even cast or shot cast bullets.

[Freightman]

Please someone tell me why a WW bullet wont shoot good???

I been using WW and WW mixes along with pure lead tin mixes all my shooting life and I cant tell the difference in there performance.
When I read comments like this makes me wonder if they even cast or shot cast bullets.

It is a conspiracy to keep more W-W for them selves, I do not know how much more accurate I could stand from my 45/70's my heart flutters at some of the groups already and with W-W only.

[Don McDowell]

Please someone tell me why a WW bullet wont shoot good???

I been using WW and WW mixes along with pure lead tin mixes all my shooting life and I cant tell the difference in there performance.
When I read comments like this makes me wonder if they even cast or shot cast bullets.

Don't know but I think it has alot to do with the antimony content of wheelweights nowdays. As you know it's almost impossible for me to get enough wheelweights to amount to anything, but the last few batches I have got lead something fierce. I didn't have that problem with the older wheelweights I accumalted 20 someodd years ago.
With the last batch of new wheelweights I got ahold of I decided to use the last of the 50-50 solder bars I had in captivity to make up some #2 alloy.... What I got in the end was an alloy that you could probably use to shoot thru a german tiger tank at 2 miles from a 40-65, it was so hard....

[Lead pot]

Don.

My Son In Law is a service manager and he brings me a lot of WW but I told him dont bring anymore because I dont want to go through several buckets full of Ww sorting out the new **** they use now.
I melted down a 100 pound batch last spring I must have missed some of the WW made of zinc or what ever they now use and it stuck to the ladle and sidewall of the pot and had butter like stuff floating on top I could not flux into the mix. I pitched the whole batch.
When my several hundred pound batch of ingots from the old stuff runs out then I will quit using WW

[Don McDowell]

Kurt I've got a bucket full of the old ones I've hung onto for 20 years , and I'm going to keep them so that at least I have something to load hunting bullets from should things get real tuff.
I liked shooting those wheelweights when you could count on them being somewhat uniform and making a dependable alloy.
My banker tells me he knows a salvage yard that has a mountain of old wheelweights in the back that he can get for 5$ a bucket.. I might go check them out if I get a chance to get to town.

[DoctorBill]

I have about 300 lbs of WW ingots that I cast.

Yes - I noticed that the newer ones had some strange characteristics.
Whiter color of my newer 1 lb ingots.
Sometimes a Butt Load of mushy metal floated to the top - I skimmed it off.

Went to a metal recycling place and ask for lead - they lead (ha !) me to a couple
of 55 drums full of huge electrodes and Plumber's Sheet Lead.

If these new ingots yield Rubbish, then I will add some pure lead from the Plumber's Sheet Lead
to get it back to what it used to be like.

I want to make some pure lead .457 bullets to resize down to .451 so's I can
paper patch them for the Trapdoor 45-70.

Pure Lead ought to be soft enough to allow me to do that.

I have a LEE .457 sizer and another LEE .451 sizer is only $18 here.

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Dr. Bill try it if you like but you'll likely end up wasting a goodly amount of time and lead and not be able to hit the broadside of a barn.

[DoctorBill]

Don McDowell - Why would you say that ?

I am shooting Paper Patched 577/450's and hit the 500 Yard Gong several times
with my Martini-Henry !

Quigley reloaded Paper Patched bullets....
Paul Matthews wrote a book on Paper Patching the 45-70 bullet (The Paper Jacket).
Supposedly about 1/3 of the Buffalo killed in the old West were done in with PP Bullets.
About five hundred of Zulus met their end from a paper patched bullet....
http://britishbattles.com/zulu-war/rorkes-drift.htm

...or are you referring to something else ?

Maybe I misinterpreted your meaning...?

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Properly done paper patched bullets can be marvelously accurate. Unfortunately for you "properly done" may not include trying to size down a grease groove bullet to a size that is larger in diameter without the paper than a properly patched bullet is.
Keep it simple and either get a decent patched bullet mould or buy some slicks from BACO or other supplier and get some good results.