My home made 45 cal swaging dies.

[OneShotNeeded]

so the swage die you're referring to is the lee sizer? Or an actual swage die?

[littlejack]

Previously on another site, I ask about sizing an 8mm jacketed (.323) down to .312 for my Mosin Nagant. I was told of some of the problems that may take place when doing so. I was very appreciative of the advace from other members and stored the information in my mental safe. One of the issues mentioned was the "springback " of the jacket. Another was the pressure on the die from the jacketed bullet. Neither one of the issues mentioned has caused any problems. Hey, if the die breaks/cracks, it does. It is what it is. Like I said, "cheap intertainment" By the way, I am using a Rock Chucker II press.
I bought the Lee push through die set for .312 diameter. After receiving the same, I proceeded with my downsizing. I lubed the .323 round nose jacketed bullets. I prelubed the sizing die. The first bullet was hard to swage down, but the rest of the ones that I swaged, were very very easy. The size, came out exact, .312+. As far as springback, I do not know. I believe that the only way a person could tell if there was springback, was/is to split a sized down bullet in half and check. I must think, that if I run a jackets bullet through a size die of
.312 and it comes out .312+, there cannot be very much springback if any. Maybe the die is a shade big. My rifles bore slugs at .313.
The lead noses of the round nose bullets did extrude forward some, but just a minor amount. Just enough to be able to see/feel it with ones fingernail.
The only problem is that the rifle, so far does not like them or the load I tried. More R&D ahead. Great fun.
It was mentioned that the principles of swaging are to size up not down. That is correct as far as I know. But, we folks with limited income have to use what we can afford.

One Shot Needed, this is all theory and R&D for me. Do not take any dimensions I give or loads as GOSPHEL. This is all new to me as well as you'all. You fellas are all on your own.
I am just posting my results to maybe give you fellas some input on what you may do for yourselves. NEVER take what someone else is saying or doing as something you can do as well and be safe with it.
As stated on an earlier post, I used a black powder compressing die to seat the cores.
One can buy these from Buffalo Arms CO; just choose the right size.

Some more dies for the .451 would be the 7mm-08 or the 308.
Persons wanting to try for heavy jacketed .458 bullets might use 44 special or 44 magnum brass. One would need to make a de-rimming die.
Jack

[danr]

so the swage die you're referring to is the lee sizer? Or an actual swage die?

the point forming die.. the actual swage die.

[Wayne Smith]

i just use the swage die to seat the core.. do a half swage with the cup and core upside down.. then turn it over, then do a full swage.. always worked great for me, and it takes the rim from the ejector groove. so it kinda ends up like a semi boat tail.


dan

Lee doesn't make a "swage" die! A sizing die has a hole through it, nothing to press the core in. I am very confused by your posts, Dan. I suspect that you know exactly what you are trying to say but are making assumptions that we know things that you have known for years but are strange and unknown to us. Thus we don't make the connections that you do.

[littlejack]

I believe Dan is referring to the rifle full length sizer die, for what ever cartridge you are using.
Jack

[danr]

Previously on another site, I ask about sizing an 8mm jacketed (.323) down to .312 for my Mosin Nagant. I was told of some of the problems that may take place when doing so. I was very appreciative of the advace from other members and stored the information in my mental safe. One of the issues mentioned was the "springback " of the jacket. Another was the pressure on the die from the jacketed bullet. Neither one of the issues mentioned has caused any problems. Hey, if the die breaks/cracks, it does. It is what it is. Like I said, "cheap intertainment" By the way, I am using a Rock Chucker II press.
I bought the Lee push through die set for .312 diameter. After receiving the same, I proceeded with my downsizing. I lubed the .323 round nose jacketed bullets. I prelubed the sizing die. The first bullet was hard to swage down, but the rest of the ones that I swaged, were very very easy. The size, came out exact, .312+. As far as springback, I do not know. I believe that the only way a person could tell if there was springback, was/is to split a sized down bullet in half and check. I must think, that if I run a jackets bullet through a size die of
.312 and it comes out .312+, there cannot be very much springback if any. Maybe the die is a shade big. My rifles bore slugs at .313.
The lead noses of the round nose bullets did extrude forward some, but just a minor amount. Just enough to be able to see/feel it with ones fingernail.
The only problem is that the rifle, so far does not like them or the load I tried. More R&D ahead. Great fun.
It was mentioned that the principles of swaging are to size up not down. That is correct as far as I know. But, we folks with limited income have to use what we can afford.

One Shot Needed, this is all theory and R&D for me. Do not take any dimensions I give or loads as GOSPHEL. This is all new to me as well as you'all. You fellas are all on your own.
I am just posting my results to maybe give you fellas some input on what you may do for yourselves. NEVER take what someone else is saying or doing as something you can do as well and be safe with it.
As stated on an earlier post, I used a black powder compressing die to seat the cores.
One can buy these from Buffalo Arms CO; just choose the right size.

Some more dies for the .451 would be the 7mm-08 or the 308.
Persons wanting to try for heavy jacketed .458 bullets might use 44 special or 44 magnum brass. One would need to make a de-rimming die.
Jack

yea, depending on the calipers used, you may only see a slight change from the lee sizing die to actual size. most calipers are hardly accurate to .001 little alone one ten thousands. great for checking your case lengths or COA's.. but not perfect.

also, the amount of sizing your adjusting makes a big difference of spring back as well.. .012 is allot of resizing.

i use a nice micrometer to check my sizes, which is accurate to 1 ten thousands.. and i am able to see spring back easily with them.. the more you change the less of a spring back.. but a slight .003 would result in a larger spring. this is more than likely because at larger changes your breaking past the spring of the brass, and pushing beyond it..

all be it, cheap is cheap.. you cant beat a dead horse if you didn't pay hardly anything for it.. as long as it works.. the money saved can be used in other ways.

its just important to note to newbies to ALWAYS use a reduced load, then work up.

it is very unlikely to crack a lee push through sizing die.. they are pretty damn soft.. so they will change in size more than anything else. your die in particular may have changed the lead-in size/shape .. this could explain why the first one was hard to resize, then afterwards it wasn't. the mass changes where done on the first sizing.. i mean .012 is ALLOT to size down.. but it just goes to show just how much you can push those cheapo dies.

also fair warning, dont try and swage 45's with a RCBS JR press.. they just dont have the cam to handle it.. i broke one of my JR2's 2 times. once the handle, then another time i snapped the pin in the ram. i was using a pry bar back in those days. now i use a nice rcbs RC which has no problems, and no pry bar needed.


dan

[danr]

Lee doesn't make a "swage" die! A sizing die has a hole through it, nothing to press the core in. I am very confused by your posts, Dan. I suspect that you know exactly what you are trying to say but are making assumptions that we know things that you have known for years but are strange and unknown to us. Thus we don't make the connections that you do.

sorry about that.

once you change a reloading die (* full length sizing die *) to do swaging.. it becomes a swage die..

i was referring to that die.

the sizing die (* lee push through die *) is only used to re-size a finished projectile into final size for your firearm.


dan

[danr]

here are some pics of a basic lee 17 rem sizing die converted into a 9mm, 38 or 357 swage die.



here is a close up of the ejection assembly.


here is a close up of the projectiles made. they come out sized at .355 at the top, and .357 at the base.. to use it as a 357/38spl swage die, you would have to lap the very top of the die to become .357 from top to bottom.



i did have to drill and tap the top of the 17 rem sizing die to be 1/2 inch 20 thread.. because lee uses a national pipe thread on them that you just cant get easily. they use a 1/8 pipe threader on a 3/8's shaft.. which is VERY strange.. it causes a taper to be created, this is what allows the decapping assembly to be held in place with the nut. granted it wasn't very easy to drill and tap the die, but using a lathe made it much easier.

for all of those who want to see a slightly different way of going about using a reloading sizing die to make it into a swage die.

thanks,
Dan

[danr]

i do have to admit, stealthshooter did a great job with his conversion..

[danr]

Dan, I appreciate the thought. Can you expand a little? What are the numbers after the parentheses? I fail to see how using a die of .441 will produce a bullet of .451? or are these a series of dies needed? This list just creates more questions in my mind. All I have done so far is use a set of Herter's dies to make 44 cal. half jackets. Using these Lee dies what goes into the shell holder? Is there another thread I've missed?

example here for 38 spl, and 357 projectile. projectile size is .357
223 rem for example, in the books it has a shoulder size of .354
but the actual size of the sizing die is .351, and the actual size of the seating die is .358

the 223 rem was used to get a baseline of what the actual size was compared to what the specs are in the book.

a sizing die would result in a bullet size of .003 smaller than spec shoulder, and a seating die would make a .004 over sized bullet.

the number 23 indicates the ANGLE of the shoulder. which would result in the general angle of the ogive if used as projectile swage die.

the LEE ( ??? ) note is something i noticed with lee manuals, they show a different spec size compared to speer.. so i made a note of it for my personal reference.

38 Spl & 357 (.357) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23 lee(.358)
**** 222 remington (.357) 23
223 remington (.354) 23 sizing die (.351) seat (.358)
17 remington (.356) 23 lee(.358)


so using the 223 as a reference, we can estimate that a 17 remington sizing die would be .003 under sized from spec shoulder size.. so it would make a .353 projectile at the top, then would taper to some unknown size depending on the length of projectile made. because lee manuals says spec is .358, then it could be .355 at shoulder.. if you where to use a lee 17 rem sizing die.. which i did use.. and did see a .355 size of projectile at the base of the ogive.

hope this helps,
thanks guys.
Dan

[Wayne Smith]

Dan, it helps a lot. I think I'm getting a glimmering of understanding now. Can I assume that other sizing dies have the same internal shape given SAMMI descriptions and limits? I.E. if I can pick up a single RCBS or Lyman etc. size die off eBay I would have the same ability without the problem of the Lee threading?

I like your solution for ejecting. Unfortunately in this context I am a Psychologist and woodworker with two wood lathes and no experience or ability to do metal work. I have to work with what is commonly available, thus the question about the other dies.

[danr]

Dan, it helps a lot. I think I'm getting a glimmering of understanding now. Can I assume that other sizing dies have the same internal shape given SAMMI descriptions and limits? I.E. if I can pick up a single RCBS or Lyman etc. size die off eBay I would have the same ability without the problem of the Lee threading?

I like your solution for ejecting. Unfortunately in this context I am a Psychologist and woodworker with two wood lathes and no experience or ability to do metal work. I have to work with what is commonly available, thus the question about the other dies.

yea, pretty much.. the 223 rem i used as a baseline was a RCBS die set.

once i got my lee die bodies i was able to confirm the baseline as correct.

heck, if you dont mind putting a rod into the top of the die every time to eject, you dont really have to make a ejector assembly.



dan

[OneShotNeeded]

Danr

On the ejection assembly what did you use as the ejection rod? I take it you had to drill through the bolt.

[danr]

Danr

On the ejection assembly what did you use as the ejection rod? I take it you had to drill through the bolt.

yes, for the 17rem i did have to drill through the center of the 1/2-20 bolt.
the ejection rod is made from a .151 tempered Allen head bolt.

but for other calibers, i used the assembly nut that came with the die. then used a 1/4 inch allen head bolt.

really depends on the reloading die you use, and what kind of space you have to work with at the neck. you want a neck size to be larger than the hole in the top bolt.. this provides a good stop point.. other wise, you can use a stop point mechanism like i made for mine.

[Methuselah3]

I've read this post several times and have yet to figure how you can form a .357 bullet by shoving a core into a die which has a bottom opening in the range of .374. The shoulder diameter on the cartridge sizes mentioned for candidates is around .357+/- but quickly narrows to the bullet size for the cartridge.I can see a seated core being rolled over at the top and then shoving that thru a sizing die but I can't see any relation to a conventional "swage" die . And I can't see how a consistent bullet can be made without working it at pressure between stops. How do you keep the projectile in question centered for the initial rollover of the point?

[danr]

I've read this post several times and have yet to figure how you can form a .357 bullet by shoving a core into a die which has a bottom opening in the range of .374. The shoulder diameter on the cartridge sizes mentioned for candidates is around .357+/- but quickly narrows to the bullet size for the cartridge.I can see a seated core being rolled over at the top and then shoving that thru a sizing die but I can't see any relation to a conventional "swage" die . And I can't see how a consistent bullet can be made without working it at pressure between stops. How do you keep the projectile in question centered for the initial rollover of the point?

it doesn't have to do a complete rollover.. in all reality, when using reloading dies as swage dies, you're only doing a neck down on the projectile.. where the neck becomes the ogive of the projectile.

so, if you can imagine doing a neck down on a case, from say a 270 to a 30-06, its the same deal when making projectiles..

so, lets say your going to make a .451 from a 257 roberts die.
you would cut the 40 case down to the desired length, then fill it with lead. you would use a custom bottom punch to push the 40 case into the reloading die, until the top of the 40 case gets necked down to 257, leaving the shoulder near .451 or over. you end up with a slightly oversized 45 projectile, with a shoulder of a 257, after that you size it to .451 in a push through sizing die.. wala.. 45 projectile with an ogive made from the shoulder/neck of the 257 roberts.

for 357, 38, 380, 9mm, you need to use brass tubing, or copper tubing.. but is basically the same process. the only diff is that the tubing based projectile will not have a complete capped bottom.. some people have made roll over dies to close up the bottom before swaging the ogive onto it.

the term swaging, doesn't imply rolling over a point.. swaging only means to SHAPE while cold. so you can re-shape whatever into whatever, as long as its cold, your swaging.


dan

[danr]

you can also use a bullet seating die, to put a rounded nose on the projectile, it takes very little pressure to do so. the normal average lyman seating die for pistol calibers works fine..

[Methuselah3]

you can also use a bullet seating die, to put a rounded nose on the projectile, it takes very little pressure to do so. the normal average lyman seating die for pistol calibers works fine..

Thanks danr. I'll try it tomorrow.I've got a set of ch4D .40 swage dies and a 243 die set so I'll seat a core and use the swage die punch to jamb it into the 243 sizer and see what it looks like. Way I see it is that will give a 6 mm meplat when adjusted if I understand correctly.I'm personally thinking about buying a set of 38 or similar steel dies from Lee to bore for swage components. That's cheaper than buying raw materials if I can true it up centered in my lathe. I like experimenting for myself too and you've done some great ground work for us that are hobbyists. How is your die production coming?
Jasper

[danr]

Thanks danr. I'll try it tomorrow.I've got a set of ch4D .40 swage dies and a 243 die set so I'll seat a core and use the swage die punch to jamb it into the 243 sizer and see what it looks like. Way I see it is that will give a 6 mm meplat when adjusted if I understand correctly.I'm personally thinking about buying a set of 38 or similar steel dies from Lee to bore for swage components. That's cheaper than buying raw materials if I can true it up centered in my lathe. I like experimenting for myself too and you've done some great ground work for us that are hobbyists. How is your die production coming?
Jasper

Fair warning, the lee dies are hardened.. working with hardened steel in a lathe is difficult to say the least. also the hardening is only skin deep.. so if you take any steel off, even .002 to .004 that area wont be hardened. also, i've tried to find out from lee what kind of steel they use so that i could put them through another hardening process, but they wont reveal what steel they use.. so re-hardening will be a royal pain.

the ch4d punch may not work very well.. its very short compared to the length of a reloading die cavity.
you maybe better off turning down a 3/8's bolt in your lathe to become a punch

the .243 has a Shoulder diameter of .454 so your projectile would be a little smaller than .454 if you used the case sizing die from the set. remember, the specs are SAMI.. so sizing dies are a little smaller, where seating dies are a little bigger than specs. remember your not using the reloading dies as a push through sizing die.. your utilizing the shoulder area as a ogive.. so the shoulder width is the key.

using reloading dies for swage dies only works for HANDGUN projectiles.. not rifle. rifle projectiles have a munch longer ogive to them, so a reloading die shoulder/neck is not long enough.

but if your just doing it to see what happens, then by all means, go for it.. the only way to learn is to try. i'm a big fan of trying new things. just be careful, watch the pressures your putting on the press and dies. breaking things is the hardest way to learn.. but you will learn something.. i'm sure you know this as a lathe owner yourself.

for making a punch from a bolt, just chuck it up on the threads of the bolt, face the end so the bolt head is about .128 then turn the head down so that it will fit into a ram like a shell holder does .533 ( just the nipple ), then turn the shaft down to the size of the projectile you want to make.. it should be right around the same size as the reloading die cavity. then do a part off at the chuck removing the threaded section.. its easy stuff with a rough right hand turning tool. i usually lap the final part with some 80 then 220 emery cloth before parting so it looks nice and clean.

use a nice long 3 inch bolt, the key to selecting the bolt is to make sure the head is large enough to become the nipple for the ram slot.

die business is going great. if you need anything let me know.. i'm even willing to share designs.. i don't profit from the designs, only the work i do. so my designs are considered open source.

thanks,
Dan

[drhall762]

Dan,

If the hardness on a Lee die is that shallow, they are probably just case hardened. My guess would be a low carbon steel. Try re-hardening with a pack carborizing compound.

Dave