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Thread: 22LR Black Powder Reloads - How to Make Them

  1. #21
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    The collet is a crimping die that I made from bolts. Even the collet itself. I don't pull bullets. These are all loaded from scratch. Empty casing add powder add bullet crimp case. The bullets are cast, swaged and powder coated. The jacketed bullets are 40 grain bullets originally made for a 22 Remington Jet Magnum. The base is cut and punched hollow and the diameter is rebated where the bullet goes into the case. The cases in these pictures are PRIMED ELEY CASES. THEY WERE LAST MADE IN THE EARLY 1980'S. These have been stored in food saver plastic bags and the primer is still good. I also reload old brass. Anneal, clean, resize. reprime and reload. None of the bullets that I make have any parts from new bullets. These cost between 1.5 and 3 cents per round to make. I have several recipes for primer. I also use toy roll caps for primer with fine aluminum powder mixed in for hotter, more firey spark. I have made my own dies. Including sizing dies, swaging dies and cutting/forming dies. w30wcf, you are very fortunate to still have the property in the Shawano area. It is a phenomenal area for hunting and fishing and trapping. Including Bear and Wolf. Big Deer and lots of them. Trout in the streams. Some of the best in the U.S.
    Here are some pictures of the tools I use:Attachment 177596 The little funnel I made from a 17 hmr casing.
    Attachment 177597Swaging die, top punch, and hollow base punch for semi-wad cutter boolits.
    Attachment 177598Here is a tool that I "discovered" rather than "made". Two identical matching files which I roll the boolit between to "knurl" the boolit. I only use this technique when I am not powder coating the boolits.
    Attachment 177599Knurled semi-wad cutter.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMGP1140.jpg 
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ID:	177600Powder coated wad cutters.
    Attachment 177601Powder dipper with interchangeable sized dipper. (made from plastic coat hanger and cotter pin and 22lr case.) The one in there now is 1.85 grain.
    I guess it is time to start a thread about reloading 22lr instead of hijacking this one. I wish I was as professional as Jon Boy. My stuff is crude.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    This is a very interesting thread. I've wanted to reload .22 RF for awhile; now I'm getting ready to actually try it.

  3. #23
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    John Boy,
    Thank you for the update. Historically speaking, 1,103 f.p.s. was the velocity shown in an early U.M.C. catalog for the .22 L.R. black powder cartridge, so we are in the ballpark with Swiss Null B.

    Using SPG lube, the fouling from Swiss is not too much different than that of smokeless. That is, no doubt, why it is still shooting like this after 100 rounds......



    w30wcf
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
    NRA Life Member
    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  4. #24
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    Traffer,
    Thank you for the additional pics and information! Very innovative and interesting!
    Please keep us updated on your progress.

    I have worked with smokeless in reloading the .22 L.R. In case you might be interested, I'll send you a p.m. with my findings later today.

    w30wcf

    p.s. The farm is owned by one of my cousins. It's been a number of years since I last visited. I need to get back there one of these years. Years ago, one of my uncles harvested a very large buck which, at the time, I believe was in the top 10 bucks ever taken in Wisconsin.
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
    NRA Life Member
    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  5. #25
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    Jon Boy, Have you ever considered making those bullets hollow based? From my experience and reading, Hollow bases help stabilize the bullet in flight enabling better accuracy. I use a hollow base punch to form my bullets, BUT I used to simply cut a hollow base in with a drill bit. It is a lot easier than you may think.(I have been using a #2 drill bit) I sharpened a drill with a bullet shaped point and drill into a 3/8" bolt I drill about 85% or so into the bolt. Then drill the remainder with a smaller punch hole to pop the bullet out with when done. Polish the hole. Put the bullet in the hole and tap it lightly with an appropriate sized punch. Then take the drill bit and carefully run it into the base of the bullet the desired depth. This gives a well centered hollow base. If you would like to try this method I would be happy to provide you with any of these homemade tools free. These are some of my early attempts at cutting hollow bases. The second one is of the bolt that holds the bullet (drill on other end) for cutting the base.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Traffer; 09-27-2016 at 01:43 PM.

  6. #26
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    Test of Various Powders-10 Meter Target @ 25ft pistol range with Mos clone of UMC Bullet:
    Rifle - Henry Yellowboy, vernier peep
    A. 4.5 Swiss 4F, no lube front groove (shots 1 -10)= 1.06"
    B. 4.5 Swiss 4F, lube front groove (shots 11 -20) = 1 1/8" (5 shots = 0.68")
    C. 4.5 Swiss Null-B, No SPG Lube front groove) (shots 21- 30)= 0.81"
    D. 4.2 Dupont 50 Mesh, Lube front groove (shots 31-40)= 1.87"
    E. L225438, 4.5 DuPont 50 Mesh, Rooster Lube (7 shots = 0.5" with 3 shots in 1 ring)
    Witness: w30wcf - John Kort
    Last edited by John Boy; 09-27-2016 at 03:55 PM.
    Regards
    John

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Jon Boy, Have you ever considered making those bullets hollow based? From my experience and reading, Hollow bases help stabilize the bullet in flight enabling better accuracy.
    Traffer, no I have never considered it but I would like to try some for comparison with the UMC bases. I think it would be an interesting test. I'll even make up a box for w30wcf (John Kort). He is the eagle eye testing guru with his scoped Marlin. And I Thank You for the tools offer. I'll send you a PM with my mailing address
    Regards
    John

  8. #28
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    I've got a large quantity of rather unusual Winchester-Western .22 rimfire cases which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets, when it was easier to get them out of the US than it is now. The seller swore he would boil out the priming composition. But when I tried a few on a hot stove, they went off with a sharp crack. My trust in humanity would be improved by thinking the stuff had been fixed with something not water-soluble. The headstamp is modern, and I suppose they were intended for shotshells. There may well be some huge mine of them out there somewhere.

    They are exactly an inch long, but of ordinary .22LR diameter, not WRM. I would be delighted if someone made a barrel blank of the right diameter for a non-heel, inside-lubed bullet. In fact I have always thought it is a great pity the .22 Winchester Rimfire (same diameter as the later WRM, but shorter) didn't become the standard .22 round. It was never as accurate as the .2LR, but with the same amount of development and investment I think it could have been better.

    If I wasn't going to use handloaded rimfires in a repeating rifle, I believe I would make them without the crimp, which I think only came in when Stevens progressed to repeaters. I believe it is by far the easiest way for the amateur to build inaccuracy into these rounds.

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I've got a large quantity of rather unusual Winchester-Western .22 rimfire cases which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets, when it was easier to get them out of the US than it is now.
    Do believe you are one very lucky reloader! Other than the primed cases that sold like lightning one time on the Hunting Shack -there are no more. Primed cases only are scarcer than hen's teeth! Having contacted 5 commercial reloaders for primed cases, standard answer - "Sorry, Legal Liability" I even talked with ArmsCor. Was told make an order for 500,000 and they'll be yours!
    Regards
    John

  10. #30
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    GONRA (1/8 Scot) sugggests Ballistics in Scotland trim these to .22 Extra Long Rimfire specs
    and consider himelf as a Really Lucky Fella!
    Then make up a "new manufacture" olde rare caliber rifle, have phun shootin' etc.

  11. #31
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    I just read your post about these 1 inch cases. There are several ways in which you could use them. You could trim them down considerably. Or you could use bullets with a very long rebated area that would seat nearly all the way down. I think that if the bullet oal was a little over an inch it would still chamber. Like 1.15" or so. If you want I can make you some very long rebated bullets and send them to you to try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    I've got a large quantity of rather unusual Winchester-Western .22 rimfire cases which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets, when it was easier to get them out of the US than it is now. The seller swore he would boil out the priming composition. But when I tried a few on a hot stove, they went off with a sharp crack. My trust in humanity would be improved by thinking the stuff had been fixed with something not water-soluble. The headstamp is modern, and I suppose they were intended for shotshells. There may well be some huge mine of them out there somewhere.

    They are exactly an inch long, but of ordinary .22LR diameter, not WRM. I would be delighted if someone made a barrel blank of the right diameter for a non-heel, inside-lubed bullet. In fact I have always thought it is a great pity the .22 Winchester Rimfire (same diameter as the later WRM, but shorter) didn't become the standard .22 round. It was never as accurate as the .2LR, but with the same amount of development and investment I think it could have been better.

    If I wasn't going to use handloaded rimfires in a repeating rifle, I believe I would make them without the crimp, which I think only came in when Stevens progressed to repeaters. I believe it is by far the easiest way for the amateur to build inaccuracy into these rounds.

  12. #32
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    It's these kind of threads that make this forum alive and well,God Bless you all for your efforts.

  13. #33
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    John Boy,
    Thank you for posting the target and notes. 50 feet was the actual distance. Hard to believe that was 4 years ago....

    Guys,
    Thank you for the additional info and positive comments! Before we got lucky with the primed cases from the Hunting Shack several years ago, I was removing bullets from .22 L.R. ammunition to get the cases. At that time this was my process for reloading those cases. I have since learned that 4.5 grs. of Swiss grouped better than 5 grs. and that Swiss Null B worked the best.



    Because the .22 cast bullet I was using at the time had a .214" heel rather than the correct .210" heel, I seated them using a .228" H&I die in combination with a standard seating die in my reloading press.

    Powder was dispensed through a .17 caliber funnel....


    Since getting the proper Mos mold and the primed cases, I just use the .225" H&I die in combination with a seating die in my reloading press. I do chamfer the case mouths first.

    w30wcf
    Last edited by w30wcf; 09-27-2016 at 11:36 PM.
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
    NRA Life Member
    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  14. #34
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    Oh wow again. I sent the PM before reading this. You do this process waaaay more professionally that I do. My stuff is all hack-made with dremels. No press or anything. I never knew that .210 was the correct diameter for the heel or rebate. I have settled on .209. I also have been reusing spent 22 cases from the range. There is a huge variance of diameters of these cases. I resize them to .225" That is really squeezing some of these guys. They get brittle from the stress. I have just discovered annealing. My last batch of cases are annealed but I haven't loaded any yet. Yes you can reuse cases. Obviously a lot more labor intensive than using primed factory cases. I have reloaded hundreds with old cases with success. I would be happy to share anything I have learned about reusing 22lr cases ...primer, resizing, cleaning, even getting the firing pin dents out (somewhat). Like I said very labor intensive but can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by w30wcf View Post
    John Boy,
    Thank you for posting the target and notes. 50 feet was the actual distance. Hard to believe that was 4 years ago....

    Guys,
    Thank you for the additional info and positive comments! Before we got lucky with the primed cases from the Hunting Shack several years ago, I was removing bullets from .22 L.R. ammunition to get the cases. At that time this was my process for reloading those cases. I have since learned that 4.5 grs. of Swiss grouped better than 5 grs. and that Swiss Null B worked the best.



    Because the .22 cast bullet I was using at the time had a .214" heel rather than the correct .210" heel, I seated them using a .228" H&I die in combination with a standard seating die in my reloading press.

    Powder was dispensed through a .17 caliber funnel....


    Since getting the proper Mos mold and the primed cases, I just use the .225" H&I die in combination with a seating die in my reloading press. I do chamfer the case mouths first.

    w30wcf

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy View Post
    Do believe you are one very lucky reloader!
    I'm glad I never had to put to the test whether I would have been a lucky reloader, if customs had detected the importation of live primers. I think I would have got away with it with a little fast talking, and production of the e-mails showing I thought the composition was to be removed. But I prefer not to find out.

    An Extra Long would still be a custom chambering job, so it makes more sense, if I ever embark on such a project, to have a .22x1in. which nobody did before.

  16. #36
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    Traffer,
    When I originally got into the reloading of b.p. .22's about 16 years ago I had some reloading tools and a mold on hand for the .22 Hornet for which I had been reloading with cast bullets since the late 1970's.

    I did not make the tools. The "M" die expander was made by Lyman for the .22 Hornet and worked nicely to expand the crimped portion to accept the cast bullet. The H&I dies were also made by Lyman and I had used them to size/lube the cast bullets. Turns out they also worked very well to seat the bullet into the .22L.R. case.

    You have the talent to make your own tools, whereas I do not. I was fortunate enough to have the tools on hand.....

    w30wcf
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
    NRA Life Member
    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    If you guys ever find a place that has new primed .22 cases don't tell John Boy and w30wcf till you send your order in first I saw a post once that these two guys where pulling bullets to reload them with black powder so I told them just get 5000 of these primed cases and load them. I made a mistake and they beat me to what was left before I had a chance to re supply my 25 year old stock I had left in the coffee can LOL. They went to a good place with those two guys.

    John, I found that 3F OE works best for me instead 4F Goex. It really shrunk the groups. I tested the black powder loads with some of the Wolf match. The black powder loads don't take the back seat with a lot of the factory .22 RF ammo.
    Strange that my low wall shoots the black powder loads best with a fouled barrel then a clean one.
    You can see starting at the lower target how large it is with a clean barrel then the second from the bottom as the fouling build up the group tightened and finally the third from the bottom put then all in contact. All of those groups are 5 shots at 50 yards shot off sand bags.
    I shot a 100 yard egg match once using them and got beat out by one of those new 17 cal rim fire rifles.


  18. #38
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    Wow impressive shooting both the bullets and the shooter. I know how hard it is to get those cases. I think that last time they were available was the early 1980's so the stuff out there has been sitting around for a long time now. I happened to get my hands on a few Eley primed cases. I have used a few but will save the majority for whey I can start producing very consistent loads. I am a long way from that at this time. Been doing a lot of "eyeball comparison" instead of measuring and charting. Never had the patients for that finicky stuff. I like to be pioneering and making stuff from new ideas. The reloading process for me has been quite a development. Have totally changed my approach several times now. All requiring a new set of tools every time. Learning a lot but progress is slow. At this point my reloads are not as accurate or consistent as cheap factory ammo. I have gotten them to fire consistently (even with reprimed re-used brass from the range). And I can load them from very very slow (like a sling shot) to very very fast. My guess is that I have had some fly over 1500 or 1600fps. That cannot be sustained though. The cases can't handle it and neither can my gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    If you guys ever find a place that has new primed .22 cases don't tell John Boy and w30wcf till you send your order in first I saw a post once that these two guys where pulling bullets to reload them with black powder so I told them just get 5000 of these primed cases and load them. I made a mistake and they beat me to what was left before I had a chance to re supply my 25 year old stock I had left in the coffee can LOL. They went to a good place with those two guys.

    John, I found that 3F OE works best for me instead 4F Goex. It really shrunk the groups. I tested the black powder loads with some of the Wolf match. The black powder loads don't take the back seat with a lot of the factory .22 RF ammo.
    Strange that my low wall shoots the black powder loads best with a fouled barrel then a clean one.
    You can see starting at the lower target how large it is with a clean barrel then the second from the bottom as the fouling build up the group tightened and finally the third from the bottom put then all in contact. All of those groups are 5 shots at 50 yards shot off sand bags.
    I shot a 100 yard egg match once using them and got beat out by one of those new 17 cal rim fire rifles.


  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I found that 3F OE works best for me instead 4F Goex
    Lead Pot - here's why Olde E FFFg works best ... the grain ratio is near Swiss Null-B
    Olde E FFFg:
    10 mesh - Zero
    20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
    30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
    40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
    50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
    60 mesh - 1.24% Hold

    80 mesh - Trace passed
    Regards
    John

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy View Post
    Do believe you are one very lucky reloader! Other than the primed cases that sold like lightning one time on the Hunting Shack -there are no more. Primed cases only are scarcer than hen's teeth! Having contacted 5 commercial reloaders for primed cases, standard answer - "Sorry, Legal Liability" I even talked with ArmsCor. Was told make an order for 500,000 and they'll be yours!
    That's not much if the price is right. Especially if we can get them in .22 WMR or WRF.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check