Lee PrecisionTitan ReloadingPBcastcoRotoMetals2
WidenersLoad DataRepackboxReloading Everything
MidSouth Shooters Supply Inline Fabrication
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: care and feeding of contenders

  1. #1
    Boolit Master blaser.306's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Saskatoon Sask.
    Posts
    994

    care and feeding of contenders

    Has anyone tried leverevolution powder in any of the contender calibers? I was thinking that it may work well ( higher velocity and lower pressure ) in 7mm rimmed int., .30 herrett and a couple of others. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA
    Posts
    2,138
    Quote Originally Posted by blaser.306 View Post
    Has anyone tried leverevolution powder in any of the contender calibers? I was thinking that it may work well ( higher velocity and lower pressure ) in 7mm rimmed int., .30 herrett and a couple of others. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Some time ago, I contacted the manufacture of that powder as I thought I might try it in the 7-30 Waters...

    I was told the powder was made specifically for the cartridges it is intended to be used for--no other data is available...

    Maybe that has changed now...

    Good-luck...BCB

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,289
    I have developed loads and pressure/velocity tested the 30-30 in my 21" Contender barrel with LeveRevoltion powder. It works very well.

    Larry Gibson

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA
    Posts
    2,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    I have developed loads and pressure/velocity tested the 30-30 in my 21" Contender barrel with LeveRevoltion powder. It works very well.

    Larry Gibson
    Isn't the 30-30 one of the cartridges it was meant to be used with?...

    BCB

  5. #5
    Moderator Emeritus

    wiljen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    4,525
    I don't think there is any real magic to these powders (Leverevolution or Superformance) that makes working up loads any different than any other powder. I think the worst thing that happens is it duplicates other existing powders and you see no real advantage to using it. The best case scenario is you gain 50-100fps over some other offerings. What worries me is that to gain that 100fps, you likely have to be at or near the absolute maximum. If that is true, I would likely not find much difference performance wise between it and other powders of similar burn rate (H335) as I rarely, if ever, get close to the max load.
    Reloading Data Project - (in retirement)
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

    Reload3006's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West Plains, Mo.
    Posts
    1,582
    Quote Originally Posted by wiljen View Post
    I don't think there is any real magic to these powders (Leverevolution or Superformance) that makes working up loads any different than any other powder. I think the worst thing that happens is it duplicates other existing powders and you see no real advantage to using it. The best case scenario is you gain 50-100fps over some other offerings. What worries me is that to gain that 100fps, you likely have to be at or near the absolute maximum. If that is true, I would likely not find much difference performance wise between it and other powders of similar burn rate (H335) as I rarely, if ever, get close to the max load.
    agreed. the reason i have not bought into the hype personally just studying the data tells me its probably a name and marketing more than "Formula"

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,289
    My tests with 3 different bullets in the 30-30 show 150-200+ fps gain over "traditional" 30-30 powders and factory ammuntion. When compared to factory pressures (actually measured in the 21" Contender and a 24" M94AE via an Oehler M43) out of 8 factory loads tested for comparison 4 of the factory loads gave higher psi measurements than the developed LeveRevolution powder loads. An addititional advantage is that with the softer/slower time/pressure curve a softer alloy can be driven to higher velocity with accuracy which gives a better expanding bullet.

    The use of LeveRevolution powder is simply being able to use a slower burning powder in that case than we've benn able to use before to achieve higher velocities at lower psi's.

    Larry Gibson

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,308
    You make it sound like it's similar to Lil'Gun, Larry. Not in speed, but in burn control characteristics.
    Cognitive Dissident

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,289
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    You make it sound like it's similar to Lil'Gun, Larry. Not in speed, but in burn control characteristics.
    LeveRevolution powder actually produces both superior velocity and less pressure. Comparison of time pressure traces clearly shows why.

    Larry Gibson

  10. #10
    Moderator Emeritus

    wiljen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    4,525
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    LeveRevolution powder actually produces both superior velocity and less pressure. Comparison of time pressure traces clearly shows why.

    Larry Gibson

    Were that universally true, they would be hyping it for use in everything. What I brought up to begin with is the fact that the behavior you are referencing seems to only hold true within a very narrow window of application outside which no such gains are found. It works great within that window, outside it, its no different than any other powder.

    And yes, I have a PBL and have tried both Leverevolution and Superformance and found that to be the case with both. LeveR works in 30-30 although I found the gains to be closer to 50fps than 150 when compared to top load of Bl-c2. I found similar results in the 35 Remington with velocity gains running roughly 75fps out of a 16" Contender. In 308 it falls between H335 and Bl-c2 with little or no advantage that I could find above either. I found that a bit odd as it is recommended for 308 Federal and 338 Marlin both of which have very similar capacities albeit slightly larger expansion ratios.

    With Superformance, the window seems even narrower as I figured with data for the short mags being the norm that other cases of similar type would work, again within a very narrowly defined range of expansion ratios, it does, outside that, not so much. I tried it in a 6.5x55 and a 257 Roberts Improved (both Rem 700s) with no appreciable gains over other powders. I would have expected either of those to have been good choices for Superformance as they fit nicely between the 243 and the 300 short mag for which Hodgdon provides data.
    Last edited by wiljen; 12-20-2011 at 09:32 AM.
    Reloading Data Project - (in retirement)
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Rocky Raab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,982
    I find it just a tad ironically humorous that when a company plainly says that something is "better" only for certain specific uses, it gets criticized. Seems to me a company would be rightly criticized if it promised more than it delivered (as with so-called temperature insensitivity, for example).

    Yet here we are carping because Hodgdon tells us the truth.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    9,679
    William has it down pat. We have been harping on the pressure-time curve for years on this board. A different lot of any powder, no matter what it is, will have different effects at the target than the last lot. There is NO MAGIC in any propulsion chemical we use for small arms. However, there is a BEST load for every gun, and it is MAGIC when we find an exceptional load on the first time out with a certain gun/ammo combo. An exceptional load is one that meets ALL expected criteria day-in and day-out. ... felix
    felix

  13. #13
    Moderator Emeritus

    wiljen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    4,525
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky Raab View Post
    I find it just a tad ironically humorous that when a company plainly says that something is "better" only for certain specific uses, it gets criticized. Seems to me a company would be rightly criticized if it promised more than it delivered (as with so-called temperature insensitivity, for example).

    Yet here we are carping because Hodgdon tells us the truth.
    I wasn't criticizing at all. I was suggesting that expecting those results across the board is a poor bet. Outside the very limited published data it seems to perform no better than other powders. (It also performed no worse so while I didn't see any velocity gain to speak of in the 308, it did shoot very accurately and with a low ES).

    I have nothing against either powder, nor with Hodgdon for the way it has been marketed. My statement was in response to the initial poster asking if it would do well in other cartridges and my experience has been that these two specialty powders have an even narrower range of application than most others if one is to extract peak performance from them.
    Reloading Data Project - (in retirement)
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,289
    wiljen

    Were that universally true, they would be hyping it for use in everything. What I brought up to begin with is the fact that the behavior you are referencing seems to only hold true within a very narrow window of application outside which no such gains are found. It works great within that window, outside it, its no different than any other powder.

    No argument there. LeveRevolution is a powder made/blended for use in only a few cartridges and is advertised for those only. It is not advertised as useful "outside" that window. The same holds true of Superperformance. The same holds true of any powder used in an in appropriate cartridge for it's burning rate.

    The OP asked for a "narrow" use of the powder in Contender cartridges. I replied with my experience with LeverRevolution in the 30-30 in a Contender. Is there a problem there? I did not say it was a great powder to use in everything and every cartridge.

    And yes, I have a PBL and have tried both Leverevolution and Superformance and found that to be the case with both. LeveR works in 30-30 although I found the gains to be closer to 50fps than 150 when compared to top load of Bl-c2. I found similar results in the 35 Remington with velocity gains running roughly 75fps out of a 16" Contender.

    Again, no argument...IF you are discussing fps only. However, with the PBL you should have noted that at the same psi in the 30-30 and the 35 Rem the LeveRevolution powder will give the higher velocities than the "top load" of BLC-2. Load the 30-30 to the SAAMI spec of 42,000psi with both powders and the LeveRevolution will give 150 - 200 fps more velocity. Actually with 150 -170 gr bullet you can hit the SAAMI MAP easily with BLC-2 but probably not with LeveRevoltion because you run out of case capacity.

    Compare fps at the same psi and you'll see the difference.

    For example; out of my 24" M94AE a load with H335 (you won't do any better with BLC-2) with a 150 gr J bullet runs 2527 fps at 44,400 psi(M43) which exceeds the SAAMI MAP. When we drop the load to the SAAMI MAP of 42,000 psi we find the velocity is 2463 fps. With LeveRevolution the same 150 gr J bullet in the same cases is pushed to 2551 fps with only 37,100 psi(M43). That is 5,000 psi below the SAAMI MAP. That load was also 100% loading density so the SAAMI MAP could not be attained. Thus we can say there was only a 30 fps "gain" over a standard powder but the facts show that came at a 7,300 psi increase for the standard powder. Keeping the psi at or under the SAAMI MAP we see a 90 fps advantage with 5,000 less psi with the LeveRevolution powder. If we could load the 30-30 to the SAAMI MAP with the LeveRevolution powder we would see a much higher fps gain over the "standard" powder.

    In 308 it falls between H335 and Bl-c2 with little or no advantage that I could find above either. I found that a bit odd as it is recommended for 308 Federal and 338 Marlin both of which have very similar capacities albeit slightly larger expansion ratios.

    I've not tested Leverevolution in any of these cartridges yet. Did you compare FPS to psi? If you get 2900 fps at 60,000 psi with "regular" powders and 2900 fps at 56,000 psi with Lever revolution there is no gain in fps. Yet there is a "gain" in less psi. Now if you load to the same 60,000 psi with the LeveRevoltion then what do you suppose the real gain in fps would be?

    With Superformance, the window seems even narrower as I figured with data for the short mags being the norm that other cases of similar type would work, again within a very narrowly defined range of expansion ratios, it does, outside that, not so much. I tried it in a 6.5x55 and a 257 Roberts Improved (both Rem 700s) with no appreciable gains over other powders. I would have expected either of those to have been good choices for Superformance as they fit nicely between the 243 and the 300 short mag for which Hodgdon provides data.

    I've also not tested Superperformance in any cartridges. When I get to it I'll compare fps to psi to determine any gain. Superperformance was not in the OPs question so it's somewhat a moot point? LeveRevolution may or may not give any "gain" in the 7mm Int. or the .30 Herret the OP asked about, I don't know as I've not tested. I only responded with my experience with the 30-30 in the Contender using LeveRevolution powder. It will be interesting to see the OPs results if he does test it.

    Larry Gibson

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master


    swheeler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    5,471
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    wiljen

    Were that universally true, they would be hyping it for use in everything. What I brought up to begin with is the fact that the behavior you are referencing seems to only hold true within a very narrow window of application outside which no such gains are found. It works great within that window, outside it, its no different than any other powder.

    No argument there. LeveRevolution is a powder made/blended for use in only a few cartridges and is advertised for those only. It is not advertised as useful "outside" that window. The same holds true of Superperformance. The same holds true of any powder used in an in appropriate cartridge for it's burning rate.

    The OP asked for a "narrow" use of the powder in Contender cartridges. I replied with my experience with LeverRevolution in the 30-30 in a Contender. Is there a problem there? I did not say it was a great powder to use in everything and every cartridge.

    And yes, I have a PBL and have tried both Leverevolution and Superformance and found that to be the case with both. LeveR works in 30-30 although I found the gains to be closer to 50fps than 150 when compared to top load of Bl-c2. I found similar results in the 35 Remington with velocity gains running roughly 75fps out of a 16" Contender.

    Again, no argument...IF you are discussing fps only. However, with the PBL you should have noted that at the same psi in the 30-30 and the 35 Rem the LeveRevolution powder will give the higher velocities than the "top load" of BLC-2. Load the 30-30 to the SAAMI spec of 42,000psi with both powders and the LeveRevolution will give 150 - 200 fps more velocity. Actually with 150 -170 gr bullet you can hit the SAAMI MAP easily with BLC-2 but probably not with LeveRevoltion because you run out of case capacity.

    Compare fps at the same psi and you'll see the difference.

    For example; out of my 24" M94AE a load with H335 (you won't do any better with BLC-2) with a 150 gr J bullet runs 2527 fps at 44,400 psi(M43) which exceeds the SAAMI MAP. When we drop the load to the SAAMI MAP of 42,000 psi we find the velocity is 2463 fps. With LeveRevolution the same 150 gr J bullet in the same cases is pushed to 2551 fps with only 37,100 psi(M43). That is 5,000 psi below the SAAMI MAP. That load was also 100% loading density so the SAAMI MAP could not be attained. Thus we can say there was only a 30 fps "gain" over a standard powder but the facts show that came at a 7,300 psi increase for the standard powder. Keeping the psi at or under the SAAMI MAP we see a 90 fps advantage with 5,000 less psi with the LeveRevolution powder. If we could load the 30-30 to the SAAMI MAP with the LeveRevolution powder we would see a much higher fps gain over the "standard" powder.

    In 308 it falls between H335 and Bl-c2 with little or no advantage that I could find above either. I found that a bit odd as it is recommended for 308 Federal and 338 Marlin both of which have very similar capacities albeit slightly larger expansion ratios.

    I've not tested Leverevolution in any of these cartridges yet. Did you compare FPS to psi? If you get 2900 fps at 60,000 psi with "regular" powders and 2900 fps at 56,000 psi with Lever revolution there is no gain in fps. Yet there is a "gain" in less psi. Now if you load to the same 60,000 psi with the LeveRevoltion then what do you suppose the real gain in fps would be?

    With Superformance, the window seems even narrower as I figured with data for the short mags being the norm that other cases of similar type would work, again within a very narrowly defined range of expansion ratios, it does, outside that, not so much. I tried it in a 6.5x55 and a 257 Roberts Improved (both Rem 700s) with no appreciable gains over other powders. I would have expected either of those to have been good choices for Superformance as they fit nicely between the 243 and the 300 short mag for which Hodgdon provides data.

    I've also not tested Superperformance in any cartridges. When I get to it I'll compare fps to psi to determine any gain. Superperformance was not in the OPs question so it's somewhat a moot point? LeveRevolution may or may not give any "gain" in the 7mm Int. or the .30 Herret the OP asked about, I don't know as I've not tested. I only responded with my experience with the 30-30 in the Contender using LeveRevolution powder. It will be interesting to see the OPs results if he does test it.

    Larry Gibson
    Larry; thanks for the report on Leverevolution powder, seems to be similar to what Hornady has been doing for years with their Light magnum and Heavy Magnum loadings. Just maybe these non-canister/OEM powders used by Hornady will become canister powders, like LEVEREVOLUTION.
    Charter Member #148

  16. #16
    Moderator Emeritus

    wiljen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    4,525
    I think Larry and I are on the same page. I understand Larry's point about lower pressures and the truth is that in some of the cases I was using, you run out of space before you can get enough powder in the case to produce top pressures. If you could get enough in the case, you probably would see the same gains you do in other cartridges. (This explains why it works in some and not other rounds). The original question was about velocities first and operating at lower pressures second as I read it. If you want to get an extra 200 fps out of a short barrel, I'm not sure this powder offers that. If you want the same velocity you can get with other powders at a reduced pressure, then yes it will do that and that was the point Larry was making.

    At the end of the day, we can both be right. It will not produce more velocity than other powders in most cartridges, it will produce typical velocities at lower pressures. Within the narrow range of cartridges for which it is optimal, you get both higher velocities and lower pressures. For things well outside its optimal range, it still produces either too much pressure too quickly to be useful or not enough pressure to get adequate performance.

    I included my testing on superformance as it was designed to work in much the same way as LeverRevolution and shares much of its technology albeit with a slightly slower burning rate so what one learns about how one powder behaves does have some relevance to how one would expect the other to operate.

    The problem the OP is going to have extrapolating data is that it is difficult without a pressure testing setup to know if you run out of case first or if you run into the pressure ceiling first.

    I doubt seriously that we will ever see Hornady's formulations released on the canister market as it would mean selling 47 or so different powders each with basically a single use.

    When you look at the marketing model for powders, the ones that survive the longest tend to be those with the widest range of uses instead of the more specialized stuff.
    Last edited by wiljen; 12-20-2011 at 04:30 PM.
    Reloading Data Project - (in retirement)
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/

  17. #17
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    9,679
    Yeah, it should not be long until some of that specialized stuff hits the surplus outfits for that reason alone. ... felix
    felix

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Rocky Raab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,982
    You last few fellows are not among the "we" who I charged with unfair complaints. You guys clearly get it. I'm referring to the crowd who assume the gains will be present in any and all cartridges, either not reading what Hodgdon says or not believing it -- or as is common on another website, being convinced that it is a vast conspiracy against them personally.

    These are -as Hodgdon clearly says- tailored powders. Like a tailored suit, they fit the intended subject perfectly, but not so well for another.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    21,289
    Yes I too think wiljen and I are on the same page. Sometimes when looking at things differently we think the answer is different but in reality it isn't.

    "The problem the OP is going to have extrapolating data is that it is difficult without a pressure testing setup to know if you run out of case first or if you run into the pressure ceiling first."

    Concur with that. I've neither of those cartridges and only limited experience with one of them. I've no doubt that the OP's objective of "lower pressure" will be met but case capacity may limit "higher velocities". Probably only one way to know and that is to test just as with any powder.

    Larry Gibson

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    6,211
    From what I have read here I may give the LeveRevolution powder a try in my Contender pistol in 30-30AI. I'm doing well with it right now with H4895 but if I can get more fps with less pressure that would be good. I also have a 21" 30-30 barrel so I probably would see some gain in it, if not in the 30-30AI.

    I'm sure there may be other cartridges that a gain would be possible with, but no testing has been done yet with them. And as Larry said the same velocity is had with lower pressure that is also good.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check