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Thread: Lyman G, H bullet sizing dies.

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Lyman G, H bullet sizing dies.

    They have done it to me again. From the actual size of the Lyman cast bullet sizing dies that I have gotten recently (three in a row), they are running on the large size. About .001 over what they are stamped. I think that I will just order one-size smaller than I actually want next time. I do not know if RCBS is the same way...but RCBS dies are 7.00 more expensive. Can anyone who has purchased more than one (so we know that it is not a singular example), RCBS cast bullet lube/sizing die attest to if the actual size matches their stamp on the die?

  2. #2
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    What alloy are you using for your boolits? Don't remember off hand, but Lyman uses their #2 alloy or Linotype when checking for size.
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  3. #3
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    What alloy are you using for your boolits? Don't remember off hand, but Lyman uses their #2 alloy or Linotype when checking for size.
    Is there any "spring-back" with lead alloys?
    Don't remember off hand, but Lyman uses their #2 alloy or Linotype when checking for size.
    Why would they do that when they would have modern bore checking tools available? No inside digital calipers, no small hole gages, no plug gages? Are they really that backward in technology that they would actually bother to push a bullet through every sizing die the make?
    I have both sized some bullets and I have measured the bores or the die, ...they are over-size, just like I said.
    My standard alloy is W.W. + 11/2% tin.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahermit View Post
    Is there any "spring-back" with lead alloys?
    Yes .
    Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    I ordered a custom sized die from Lee several years ago. The boolits that I ran through it came out about .001" larger than the size that I had asked to have the die made. I got pretty hot under the collar about that, but fortunately, I pulled out a ball mic & measured the actual size of the die before I called them up to give them an earful. It turns out that they made the die right on size within .0001" or better. My 13bnh boolits were just springing back a little after going through the die. When I pushed some dead soft lead through the die, I got the size that I had asked for.

    I'm not saying that your die isn't off-spec. But I am suggesting that you might want to find a way to double check the dimension.

    If you are looking at spring back, then getting a die that is slightly undersized may be your best bet.
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  6. #6
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    I'm not saying that your die isn't off-spec. But I am suggesting that you might want to find a way to double check the dimension.
    I have both measured the bore of the die(s), and measured the bullet size that they produce. They are indeed, oversize.

    For what it is worth, I have in the past made some of my own bullet sizing dies. I found that if the bore is correct as machined, they will be over-size after heat treating. I found that I had to make them under-size, heat-treat, and then use an abrasive to increase the bore to the correct size. Unfortunately, I am retired and no longer have access to equipment. Nevertheless, it is frustrating as hell to pay 22.99 for dies and have buy one or two more to get the correct size. In industry, if a dimension is off by .001, it has missed by a mile.

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    To the question: Originally Posted by dahermit
    Is there any "spring-back" with lead alloys?


    Quote Originally Posted by oneokie View Post
    Yes .
    How much spring-back can one expect on a .451 bullet made of WW?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMinPHX View Post
    I ordered a custom sized die from Lee several years ago. The boolits that I ran through it came out about .001" larger than the size that I had asked to have the die made. I got pretty hot under the collar about that, but fortunately, I pulled out a ball mic & measured the actual size of the die before I called them up to give them an earful. It turns out that they made the die right on size within .0001" or better. My 13bnh boolits were just springing back a little after going through the die. When I pushed some dead soft lead through the die, I got the size that I had asked for.

    I'm not saying that your die isn't off-spec. But I am suggesting that you might want to find a way to double check the dimension.

    If you are looking at spring back, then getting a die that is slightly undersized may be your best bet.
    Using my same standard alloy in an old die that is stamped .309, I get, .3092 Which is close enough, as far as I am concerned. But a full .001 is not. Especially when a die marked .452 produces .453 diameter bullets that are being sized down to .451 by the Lee Factory crimp die on my last Dillion 550B station. It makes the Dillion too "clunky-sticky" in operation. (I would rather the bullet sizing die, actually size the bullets, not the loading press.) So, I ordered another Lyman die to take the bullets down to .451 so the diameter of the bullet need not be reduced by the Factory Crimp Die...and I get a die marked .451 that takes them down to .452...still not correct, but that is at least .001 closer to the diameter I want.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    So, jsut trash the factory crimp die, use a dillon taper crimp die and let the bore size the slug. Lots cheaper and less frustrating.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahermit View Post
    How much spring-back can one expect on a .451 bullet made of WW?
    I've seen as much as .001" of spring back on a .366" boolit made from an alloy that was similar to WW & was being sized down quite a bit in one step, but I have not seen much more than that. It appears to me that when you try to take a boolit down several thousandths, it springs back more than if you just size id down a thousandths or two. Heat treat makes a difference too. These are just general statements. I haven't done any real empirical trials to document the effect accurately.
    “an armed society is a polite society.”
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Lots of folks give spring back and alloy difference too much credit. Lyman dies often are just shoddy.

    This week, I sized a bunch of 45 handgun bullets in a Lyman .452 die. They came out .453. I then took them to a Lee push through .452 die and they came out .452. Same bullet and same alloy, and therefore same springback.

    I went through three .313 dies and none of them sized .313. I had Buckshot make me one and every bullet came out .313. Same bullet, same alloy and same springback. Just bum Lyman dies.

    In face, Buckshot has made me four or five sizing dies (body or nose) and bullets sized in them came out spot on.

    You had it right the first time, Lyman sold you a crappy die.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  12. #12
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    My .459 die yeilds .459 with WW, but with harder material like Linotype it squeezes only to .460. wiht .003-4 to move. with only a .001 or so it would probably work fine

    That sprig back thing they were talking about above is not the bullet springing back, it is the die flexing.

    It's a tapered hole and when you shove something that doesn't give that easily into it hard enough, it will give.

    .001 in not that much ,,,about 1/3 of one of your hairs, IF,,, you have any left?

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I fully admit that I know nothing about metals, but I had a hard time swallow that a reloading press can generate enough pressure to expand a steel sizing die by pushing an alloy (even linotype) softer than the steel through the die.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  14. #14
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    apologies to Lyman

    WHOOPS!!! I pushed a .50 round, pure-lead ball through my Lyman .451 bullet size/lube die. It measured .451...it was bullet spring-back. My apologies to Lyman.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahermit View Post
    WHOOPS!!! I pushed a .50 round, pure-lead ball through my Lyman .451 bullet size/lube die. It measured .451...it was bullet spring-back. My apologies to Lyman.
    1. Did you buy that die to size pure lead balls?
    2. Did Lyman make that die to size pure lead balls?
    3. Do you really think, you own Lyman an apology ?
    4. Lyman uses #2 alloy as their standard for their molds and I suppose their sizing dies as well.
    5. We buy equipment to size alloy bullets not pure lead and Lyman knows that.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    1. Did you buy that die to size pure lead balls?
    2. Did Lyman make that die to size pure lead balls?
    3. Do you really think, you own Lyman an apology ?
    4. Lyman uses #2 alloy as their standard for their molds and I suppose their sizing dies as well.
    5. We buy equipment to size alloy bullets not pure lead and Lyman knows that.
    1. No.
    2. No
    3. Yes, it was stamped .451 and that what it was. They cannot anticipate what alloy I was going to use. So, they cannot really adjust the size of the die that would produce a .451 bullet no matter what alloy was being used. Especially in this day and age when everything is being used from type metals, wheel weights, home brews, range scrap...how could they anticipate what I will use?
    4. The sizing die they sent me produces a .451 bullet (as marked), with pure lead, which has been viewed as having no spring-back.
    5. Considering the variation in bullet alloys, the best that they can do is to produce a die that has the exact hole in it as it is stamped...I can expect nothing more until someone invents an adjustable sizing die, which will not be anytime soon.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Sonnypie's Avatar
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    It's too late.
    Lyman has you "Black Listed".

    Instead of blaming the equipment, do some scrutiny on what you are feeding it.
    "Wheel weights" is in NO WAY some "standard alloy". It is a Hodge-Podge of lead based conglomerations of road gunk.
    Lyman #2 is a tried and proven boolit casting alloy that has grown to be a standard.
    And, surprise, surprise, Lyman uses that alloy as their standard. Imagine that!
    So there, consider yourself scolded.

    That said, I hone my sizing dies to fit a specific bore size. That way it fits a particular firearm. Like .3094 for a .3084 slugged bore. I'm currently experimenting with a .3104" die (.002" over), and certified Lyman #2 alloy.
    But 5 machinists can measure something, and all 5 will get a slightly different reading.
    So Thank Goodness lead is soft and forgiving.
    God Bless America!

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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    dahermit.. Every gets to live life their own way, but you are eating the offal for Lyman. I have scores of Lyman, RCBS and custom made sizing dies. With the exception of a few Lyman funky dies, they all size bullets of various alloys to the size marked, plus or minus .0002.

    That .0002 will be the result of various alloys, but in no way will .001 or more be acceptable and explained away by alloy difference.

    But, live life your way, and take the hit for Lyman and it lousy quality control.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

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