Swedish Roller 12.7 x 44mm

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Well, I'm happy to report that I got my new toy today. I was a bit apprehensive buying 'on line' without having an opportunity to inspect, but for the price I got an 1874 rifle (yep, 137 years young) that was better than described, metal work and stampings are very clear, carry a lot original blue, wood is near unmarked with original finish, and a mirror finish bore that is just unbelievable, no pitting or dark patches anywhere





Now with the right boolit, fireformed cases this marvel should shoot will in the 'Vintage' competitions

[Boz330]

BA, nice find. I've been lusting for one of these for awhile. A couple years ago they were plentiful and the sporter models could be had for $225. I got one in 8MM that now wears a 40-65 barrel.

Bob

[cgtreml]

What a nice find. Took me 12 years to get mine and then restore it. Have a great shooting sporting model in 44 sharps. No better way to turn heads at the range.
Good Luck

[Old-Win]

I've got a 12.7 in a Husqvarna sporter that I restored but am having a booger of a time getting it to shoot. The hard part is finding a decent boolit. Anything for the American made 50's when loaded will not seat in the chamber. A Lyman 509 133 and a 515 141 are too large in diameter. My bore mics at .478" - .508." The only thing I've found that works is an RCBS miniball but get poor accuracy. Bullet holes look like hexagons. What are you guys using for a bullet? Bob

[excess650]

Check the twist in the barrel. I recall that they're really slow, so might be best with a 300-350gr boolit.

I had a sporter version that seemed to have a longish, tapered case. It seemed like a 50-70 case was too short at 1-3/4", and that a 2" case was about right. It might have been a chamber with no distinct end of chamber and beginning of leade. The rifling was very deep and round bottoms in the grooves.

[Scotty]

I find the Lyman 515139 sized down to .510" works well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWKZXqI28_s

[Old-Win]

Excess, I believe your right about weight. The RCBS skirmishers mold is adjustable and I am casting a bullet right now that weighs about 320 grs. and .501" in dia. It's a hollow base bullet as I believe the originals were. It loads OK and will fit my chamber. Looks like a wad cutter otherwise. Doesn't shoot worth a hoot passed 35 yds.

Scotty, That 515139 looks about right for the cartridge. Trouble is, the .509-.512" bullets when loaded, won't chamber. My chamber won't take a bullet passed .501". I'm using Bertram brass.

When loading a hollow based bullet, do you fill the base with lube or leave it empty? Bob

[Chicken Thief]

Of all the Swedish rollers i have had contact with only one has had a chamber as tight as you describe, and here is my solution:

A Lee 90991 ment for the 500S&W revolver. It will cast a true .501" boolit. I did'nt care for the GC shank so it went in the lathe and now casts a 407gr boolit that shoots great.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I'm using Bertram brass.

I've got 20 Bertram cases but I'm told that 348 Winchester cases can be used to form brass. I measured the rim of the Bertram at .620 but the 348 Win is only .604and seems to be a sloppy on the extractor.

Rather than firerorm I was thinking of making an expander die button that goes right down to the head internally.

[Stampede]

The 12,7x44R is probably one of the most used black powder cartridges today. We call it the European .50-70, it’s almost identical in the measurements. We all so use the same bullets and size them back to .510.

I have great success up to 300 meters. The Husqvarna and Remington RB rifles are in abundance over here (the Netherlands), for a mint condition rifle you pay about $ 800.– and for a regular one about $ 150.– (a perfect shooter). Barrel qualities like the one from ******Wallice are thankfully no exception from Husqvarna.

The brass can be bought in the US by Huntingtons it’s from the German manufacture Horneber. The quality is absolutely superb and almost every one of us here prefer them above the Bertram cases. Indeed all so forming them from 348 Winchester is possible, but it is a waist of money and brass. Some of us even size (case forming) .50-70 brass back to 12,7x44R and turn the rim back a bit to fit the chambers. This is the most cheapest and easiest way when you don’t have a choice.

In the past I even turned my own brass (see my pictures), the left one is the self made case and the right one is the Horneber case. The right one I all so did some paper patching with the bullets, just for the fun of it. But these rifles actually don’t need it.

The bullets that I use are the two left ones on the picture. The most left one is with a Lyman mould the other one is with a Seaco mould. In the past I used even Lee Minie-Ball bullets. For load data we use the .50-70 data without any troubles.

These RB rifles are a lot of fun to use and come with an unlimited amount of different calibers (a reloaders dream). I have Husqvarna’s in .50-70 / 12,7x44R and 11mm Danish / .45-70 / 7mm / 43 Spanish, Egyptian and Reformado / .577BPE / .450 BPE / .12Gauge. All of them are original (not modified!!). The RB’s are all so made over here by Francotte, Carl Gustav, Remington- Husqvarna and Beaumont, to name a few. The differences are in the detail.

I think that the Husqvarna RB rifles are just fun to have, especially when they are good shooters.

Peter (Stampede)

[Dutchman]

Chamber dimensions on these 12,7mm rifles is not uniform. If you're having trouble chambering then try shortening the case length first. Case wall thickness should also be checked. I use .348 Winchester brass and multiple plugs to expand and twice annealing is not excessive. You're working the brass quite a bit so anneal initially and mid-way through the expander plugs. You do this only once and then the cases are good for quite a while.

You can measure bore & groove at the muzzle with dial calipers.

The two hard cast bullets I'm still using were purchased from Wayne Doudna long ago. One is 350 gr the other 450 gr. Both are .512". They both have a large meplat. I don't know what make mold they were dropped from. The 450 gr is too heavy for this caliber, IMO, though it shoots ok the velocity is too low as the case just isn't that big. The 350 gr shoots very well and yes it can shoot MOA. I did that once with 5744 and put 3 rds into one big hole. Surprised me with the lousy sights.

My page on this needs updating...
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/12744r.html

[Chicken Thief]

For those of you that cant get the case drawing to make scense then here is some conversions:

1 Lod = 4 Kvintin = 15,56gram ~ 240gr
1 Kvintin = 3,89gram ~ 60gr
1 Linie/strå = 3,14mm ~ 0.123"

So:
Powder weight 1 kvintin = 60gr
Boolit weight 5.85 kvintin = 351gr
Cartridge weight 2,3 lod = 552gr

Case length 13,3 linier = 1.64"
Boolit diameter 4 linier = 0.494"

[Old-Win]

That bullet diameter of .494" is vey small by today's standards but must bump up because of it's hollow base. Is there a mould or bullets available on either side of the pond that are similar to the one shown in the diagram? Does anybody know if hollow based bullets are filled with lube or left empty? Bob

[Chicken Thief]

The "small" diameter was due to the fact that the Swedes had more than 30,000 Vredes M1860 frontloaders that they wanted to convert instead of discard (money you know!). So the boolit was made small enough to go into a tight chamber and at the same time obturate to fill the deep rifling (like the original Minié boolit).

Mine (3) has always had a chamber big enough to chamber the Lee 515/450 boolit and shoot it very well.

Here is the maker of "Jämttangen" as it is called in the scandinavian countries:

Ole Tinggaard
Box 61
83070 Hammerdal.

Hjem +4664410764
Mobil +46706890473

The original cartridge had no grease in the cavity and no wad.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I found the perfect case to form ammunition for the 12.7x44 - I bought some used 500/450 Nitro cases at a gunshow for 40c ea, cut a little oversized in length annealed then trimmed and used the expander to seat a boolit. Rim size, head diameter is a match.

Perfect!

[powderburnerr]

bad *** , your bore looks more hexagonal than dutchmans picture , is it , I have a hex bore 50 and really like the way it works ,

[Ed in North Texas]

snip
The brass can be bought in the US by Huntingtons it’s from the German manufacture Horneber. The quality is absolutely superb and almost every one of us here prefer them above the Bertram cases. snip
Peter (Stampede)

It is possible that I failed to find the 12.7x44R Horneber cases on the Huntington website, and they actually still have them. But while they do carry a number of Horneber cases, the 12.7 is no longer listed as one they have.

Thanks for the other information. And If I come across some of their 12.7 cases, I'll know the brand and buy them.

Ed

[Stampede]

Okay they might have stopped the sale of those cases, perhaps they still can order them for you. If they sell the other cases of Horneber than ordering the 12,7 should not be a problem in my opinion. I find Huntingtons one of the best suppliers that I ever had contact with, they helped me out more than once with obsolete equipment. It's worth to give them a call.

Peter (Stampede)

[Dutchman]

Probably not available anymore....

[Stampede]

Nope, and the primers are even harder to get. At least have not seen them in Europe for the last 10 years or so (not even in Germany, home of RWS).

Peter (Stampede)