There's something to this ball powder...

[Nobade]

Hi CJR, I was surprised at how bad it shot too. But I am right with you on the theories.

#1 - Yep, seated to it engages the rifling a bit. Not huge though since there is barely any bullet in the case now.

#2 - They were .309", I wish I had some slightly thicker paper for .310.

#3 - I totally agree. I suspect the filers I got were from voids inside. Hitting them this hard is going to likely reveal flaws that normal cast bullet loads don't show.

#4 - Yep, I learned that. I had some primed with Fed 215s and some with Wolf LR. The Fed ones hit higher and were more accurate. The Wolf primed ones had quite perceptable hangfires and hit lower.

#5 - I think this is a problem with these boolits. They weren't very hard, and do have a fairly long unsupported nose and a very large meplat. Next time out I'm going to shoot #311466 Loverin style boolits, from my new NOE mould. A short round nose and almost all body should take the launch better. I expect I'll see better results from them if the theory is correct. Those NRA paper patch bullets look like that as well, so that's some sort of verification.

#6 - You're right about the vertical. I had lots of wind so I would expect to see lots of horizontal, but the vertical is powder charge and primer. Going to only hot primers should stop the inconsistant ignition, and once I get a boolit that shoots predictably I can start doing ladder tests to home in on the ideal powder charge. I also want to try some WW780 to see how that works, since it'll allow a full case instead of some room like 760. I suspect it'll work even better but don't have any yet.

[geargnasher]

Nobade, it worked pretty well for me, just fill 'er up to the boolit base, but don't compress it too much as pressure seemed to really spike and POI changed greatly when I began to add enough to "just" compress it. I've tested to 60 grains with Federal 210 primers and 150-grain boolits at 99% load density with good results, also added enough to make 100% and several fractional amounts of compression density but decided that was a bit more pressure than I was looking for (not unsafe by any means, just more than I wanted), you should be able to go at least another grain if you need to to fill the case with your lighter 311466. My chronograph numbers and targets didn't show any need for magnum primers, of course YMMV as always.

Gear

[303Guy]

geargnasher, your logic sometimes aligns with mine to an uncanny degree! It's good to have folks out there who have actually done and 'proved' the things I've sometimes only speculated about. And I refer to several folks. Quite a few folks in fact.

Yup. This has got to be among the best site there is!

[windrider919]

Don't know if it is still true, but for years in the 70's and 80's reduced loads below the loading manuals (and the starting load was still fairly hot) were discouraged due to erratic ignition and some reported never fully explained overpressure events with reduced charges of WW 748.

Back in those days, if you wanted to shoot reduced loads you shot only IMR extruded powders.

Also, the WW ball powders were VERY sensitive to powder position in a partially full case, I went to raising the muzzle vertical after chambering a round then bringing it down to point at the target every shot shooting .308 silhouette with WW760 because if the powder was consistently at the back of the cartridge, it made an accuracy difference.

Was not shooting PP in 30 cal back then and found the best cast bullet was the Lyman 311041

On shooting BLC2 - might look at the thread where it is discussed
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=131101

[303Guy]

Thanks for the insight, windrider919.
It is all making a lot of sense now the the gaps in my observations are being filled in.

I did once try some ball powder in a 303 Brit but not having access to pressure measurement equipment I used velocity and primer flattening as an indication. The powder produced a sharp upturn in the velocity curve at the higher end and primer flattening confirmed an increase in pressure. I had another powder at the time which indicated a very small velocity deviation (almost within the instrument resolution) so I abandoned it.

It seems to me that ball powders are one of those animals that need to be understood and used correctly to produce results. (I fell in love with Lil'Gun when loading for my hornet - absolute magic! Someone once said there is no such thing as a magic powder. They were wrong! Admittedly, there is only one such 'magic' powder).

[CJR]

Occasionally, you will read statements that PPCB loads will equal or exceed match jacketed loads. Now I've fired my share of match-grade jacketed bullet loads and know what to expect out of my factory rifles. But after shooting PPCB loads, many times I've just sat there looking through my spotting scope, in complete disbelief, on how small my PPCB groups were at 100 yds. I get excited anytime my PPCB are touching one another at a 100 yds. Once you get the PPCB technique right, there is definitely something really significant/magical going on with PPCB loads. It gets my attention anytime a home-cast CB can out-perform a match jacketed bullet at a 100 yds with a factory rifle.

I mentioned this awhile back, but it warrants repeating again. If one does a reasonable job casting lead bullets, he'll get a reasonable quality CB with minimal internal voids/porosity. Minimal internal voids/porosity can still unbalance a CB and degrade accuracy. But, if the CB are separated into weight spreads of +/- 0.5 gr. or less, you will still have randomly oriented voids/porosity that can still cause inaccuracy. However, on firing these PPCB, at pressures close to 50,000psi and hardnesses of around 15BHN, all the internal voids/porosity in the PPCB gets custom SWAGED/OBTURATED to your particular barrel rifling so the CB is close to being perfectly solid; i.e. no unbalancing voids, etc., when it exits the muzzle. So if the form of your CB form is a decent one, you will get high accuracy at long range. Remember, the NRA created PPCB loads equal to or better than government match loads. If they could do it, so can we. Being able to load inexpensive and accurate PPCB, at home, is my motivator. If you want higher accuracy with match jacketed bullets, you have to spend more $$$$$ for a higher quality match bullet. Then maybe you get a match barrel for your rifle, etc., etc., etc. With my PPCB, I spend a couple extra minutes weight-sorting them and get match accuracy in my factory rifle. What's not to like with this scenario? Also, I find my loading technique is getting simpler and I'm producing more PPCB loads in a shorter length of time. Result? More shooting!

Hope springs eternal!

Best regards,

CJR

[Nobade]

I got to shoot the 30-06 again yesterday with PP, and this time with far better results. Using #311366 NOE bullets, sized to .303" and patched to .309", loaded over 45gr. WW760 plus 1.3cc BPI shot buffer I was seeing groups around 1 MOA on paper at 100 yards in our shooting tunnel, and when the wind died down a bit took it out to the big range and shot hanging steel to 385M. Everything at longer range was predictable and once I had the sights dialed in had no problem keeping hits on the highpower turkey swinger at 385. It's either the lack of filler in previous attempts or the change in boolit design, but this rifle really can shoot with the right ammo!

[CJR]

Nobade,

Outstanding effort! The magic of shooting PPCB. Hello PPCB, goodbye jacketed bullets! Keep us posted as you refine your load.

Best regards,

CJR

[geargnasher]

Good job, Nobade! It seems that the compacting filler and ball powders is a good combination with less than 100% density loads. Try some Winchester Supreme 780 or Hybrid 100-V if you get a chance.

Gear