Leading-Revolvers vs Autos

[rockrat]

Yeah, bunch of guns should never leave the factory, but they do. Had a Ruger 22 once that didn't have any rifling. Wish I would have kept it.

[ColColt]

FWIW, I use revolvers almost exclusively, and can't remember the last time I had a leading problem with any of them.

Well, Molly, I guess you've just been lucky. If you had this one you would have your first problem child to deal with regardless the powder choice.

[Molly]

Well, Molly, I guess you've just been lucky. If you had this one you would have your first problem child to deal with regardless the powder choice.

I suppose that's possible, but I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of a bushel and a half to two bushels of revolvers ranging from breaktop 32 & 38 S&W through 32 long, 32 H&R Mag, 32-20, 38 Special, 357 mag, several 44 specials and a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag. Mostly of American mfg, with a few Spanish and Brazilians tossed in to spice up the pot. I've also used 32 ACP, 9mm Para, 45 Colt and 45 ACP autoloaders of various manufacture rather extensively, and a handful of weird and long obsolete european rifle and revolver calibers. Not to mention a sample or two of most military surplus rifles you've heard of, and a few you probably haven't, along with a reasonably generous dosage of fairly current American and European rifles.

At one time, I hardly ever left a gun show without some sort of gun or caliber I hadn't loaded for or shot yet. I've made my own molds made cases, and paper patched ammo for the 10.4 mm Vetterli-Vitalli, 500/450 Martini and 11 mm Mauser, just as examples. Firearm quality has varied considerably, but leading is never an issue. All with cast bullet handloads almost exclusively.

My Highway Patrolman has had to be reblued three times now (holster wear), and the only factory ammo it's ever seen was a lone 38 Special wadcutter someone left on the bench at my range. And it's first leading is somewhere in the future too.

The guidance I posted works with all of them without a single exception that I can think of at the moment. Ahh, not quite true! I have to admit little to no interest in guns with badly rusted bores, though there have been one or three of them in the mix.

Whoops! I just remembered one case of intractable lead fouling, but it wasn't with handloads. It was a Llama .22 autoloader that leaded with every type and brand of ammo I fed it. One clip was generally enough to obliterate visible rifling and give me something to do for the next few days getting it clean again.

But you say, that's just luck, right? Nah! I don't have that much luck.

[ColColt]

All I can say is I think you're dreaming. Either that, or you've secretly made a trip with your two baskets to Fantasy Island and had Tattoo put his mojo on the contents of that basket. I don't think the real world experiences what you have. Come on, all those guns and no leading.... Totally amazing.

[MtGun44]

I never get leading any more. I have not scrubbed out lead in many years, with the exeption
of slight streaking in my competition 1911 from the too hard commercial H&G 68 clones
with that crummy crayola lube. Even then it is slight, does not build up beyond a few streaks
and I only scrub it out every few thousand rounds. None of my other guns, revolvers (many) or
semi-autos ever lead. Years ago, I had a some cases that were pretty bad, even used a Lewis
Lead remover a few times. Haven't had it out in 10 years and almost never shoot jacketed in
my pistols and revolvers.

Bill

[geargnasher]

ColColt, a few years ago I would have thought Ken's claims of "leading is never an issue" to be outrageous also. Not anymore. Some kind folks here got me straightened out with my leading problems promptly and I've been so happy and lead-free for several years now (aside from a wild experiment or two really pushing the envelope) that I keep trying to pass on what I can about this commonly mis-understood phenom.

Gear

[Bret4207]

All I can say is I think you're dreaming. Either that, or you've secretly made a trip with your two baskets to Fantasy Island and had Tattoo put his mojo on the contents of that basket. I don't think the real world experiences what you have. Come on, all those guns and no leading.... Totally amazing.

I don't claim to have a gazilllion guns and zero leading, but I've had no leading issues to speak of in any properly prepped handguns using proper boolits and loads for many years. In a copper fouled rifle barrel? Yeah, I get leading. But nothing to speak of in my handguns. Not to say it won't happen, but I haven;t run on to a real sour lemon so far.

[Molly]

All I can say is I think you're dreaming. Either that, or you've secretly made a trip with your two baskets to Fantasy Island and had Tattoo put his mojo on the contents of that basket. I don't think the real world experiences what you have. Come on, all those guns and no leading.... Totally amazing.

Colcolt, what would be my motive for lying? I'm telling it to you straight. If you use properly fitting bullets of a decent hardness with a good lube and slow burning powders, leading is NOT an issue.

Perhaps you don't understand what causes leading. Whe I first got into cast bullets, I didn't either. But after after a few experiences, I decided to find out.

There were all sorts of explanations making the rounds. Bullets rubbed the lead off on the bore. They ran out of lube. They melted from hot loads. The list of old wives tales is long, but I tested every stinking bloody one of them. Nothing I tried produced ANY adhesion of lead to steel unless the temperature was high enough to melt the lead. And believe me, I tried. Even with no lube, I couldn't get lead to stick to steel at all, unless the temperature was high enough to melt the lead alloy. The most I could get at any speed, any pressure was a light lead dust that wiped off with my fingers.

But that didn't make sense either: FMJ bullets have lead exposed at the base, but they don't melt, even with loads much hotter than my cast bullet loads. I started recovering bullets from shooting them into everything from pools of water to bales of hay to sand banks. The nose was generally shattered, but the base could be recovered almost every time. And examination of the base NEVER showed any melting. But with hot loads, the bases often showed dull patches that contrasted sharply with the shine of freshly cast lead alloy bullets.

I could go on for pages with what I learned, and how different mechanisms work with plain base and with gas checked bullets, but it all boils down to the simple fact that leading is caused by hot gas leaking past the bullet, especially at the base. The lead is etched (not melted) by the hot gas and the etched metal is deposited on the bore as leading. Add a gas check, and it's higher melting point prevents etching until the load begins to push jacketed performance. Then gas leakage past the gas check will begin to etch the sides of the bullet and produce leading.

It's really quite simple, once you understand the underlying mechanisms behind leading. Proper (tight) fit in the throat helps because it provides a better seal, giving less gas leakage. Bullet lubes help because they 'contaminate' the bore and -up to a point - they prevent the etched lead from adhering. Think of trying to solder to greasy metal, and you'll see how it works. Slower powders help because they burn at lower temperatures.

And if you doubt ANY of that, try this simple experiment: Fill the empty space in your round with a tuft of cotton or dacron, and add a little cream of wheat (DRY!) under your bullet. But don't use any bullet lube or gas check. In fact, you don't even need to size the bullet if the loaded round will chamber. And load it hot! Use loads recommended for top jacketed loads for whatever rifle you're using. When the round fires, the cream of wheat forms a firewall that keeps the gas behind the bullet, and doesn't allow any leakage past the bullet. Consequently, there is no etching, and as a further consequence, there is no leading, even from bullets loaded just as they fall from the mold.

The nice part is that the same mechanisms are at work in ALL firearms. Once you learn how to prevent leading in one gun, you pretty much know how to prevent it in ANY gun. Oh, sure, there are variations in guns that make one more likely to lead than another. You just have to adjust your load to compensate. Does this rifle have a looser throat than the last one? Use a bullet sized larger to compensate. The old advice to slug your bore and size your bullet to fit accordingly is a shipload of fertilizer, almost guaranteed to give you leading. Size your bullet as large and as far out as you can and still chamber the round. The larger bullet is a tighter fit in the throat, and will be much less prone to leading. And don't worry about it fitting the bore: It will size down to a perfect fit as it leaves the throat.

Just try it ColColt. Once you get the hang of it, you'll be a believer too.

[NHlever]

You might also give Ruger a call, and tell them that you have one barrel that leads more than other Ruger barrels you have, and that you suspect a rough bore. Most, if not all of Ruger's round barrels (Blackhawk, Super Redhawk, etc.) are hammer forged these days, and that results in a smooth barrel. Barrels with ribs, and/ or underlugs can't be processed that way and have to be broached, reamed, and button rifled, or have broach cut rifling. In a production setting sometimes this leaves a rougher bore, though they can be very nice indeed.

The other thing is that it can be difficult to hold a revolver frame perfectly square with the barrel hole when the front of the frame is milled, or ground. This very slight out of square condition. When the barrel is torqued on, it actually has a tiny crimp, or bend in it that causes the "tight spot" that folks often talk about. (now before I get flamed as I have before for mentioning such things, you should know that over more than 30 years I spent a lot of time measuring such guns, and guns without that condition with engineers, and quality control folks that know what they are doing with tools most of us won't have. That is also why so many Rugers, and other guns with the "tight spot" usually could use a higher front sight. it is an unfortunate situation that can be fixed, but so far companies don't feel enough people care. If more would talk to them in a constructive way, or send their guns back, perhaps we could get this fixed. I am a Ruger guy from way, way back, but I sure have talked to them about this, and yes I got the "meets Ruger specs" speech, but it can, and should be fixed.)

[Char-Gar]

Somebody please define what "leading" is and is not". Does this mean and absolute "zero" of lead in the barrel after shooting or something less? How many rounds are involved in this issues?

I have been around sixguns and autpistols with cast bullets a very long time. I know all of the tricks and secrets that anybody else knows. These conversations tend to make me a little queasy, as we are talking about things which are undefined or self-defined.

So, you folks who have decisively defeated leading, please tell us what it is and what it is not.

I started a whole new thread on this subject under the Sixgun section, if anybody would like to comment there.

[ColColt]

I'm just aggravated about this in that after all the trouble many here went to to aid me in analyzing this problem and it turned out it's not the hardness, not the size and probably not the restriction but a poorly cut forcing cone. It's hard to see with the naked eye and even a bore scope can't show you all. The photos is what brought things to light for me and It appeared that was the problem area to deal with.

This is the only handgun I have that has given this problem and out of countless changes of powder, bullet shape, velocity changes, fire lapping, etc. it was all for naught until the revelation from the pics. Many years ago I had leading problems in several handguns-primarily revolvers and of which one was a Ruger 45 Colt. It could have been the alloy as back then I mostly used Lyman #2 and a variety of powders but mostly Unique and 2400. I think probably the boolits were undersized as I have that same mold today and believe it was cut small.

Molly-No implications of lying-mostly teasing. The throats in this revolver are .358 and I've tried that size to no avail so, I ordered a .359" size die and used that-same problem. The boolits I used to fire lap were.360" Of course, nothing is going to change until that forcing cone area gets cleaned up.

That brings me to what to do. I went to the gunshop today and talked with the gunsmith. He seemed reluctant to cut an 11 degree angle preferring to leave the 5 degree as is and just clean up the forcing cone. We went back and forth about that and I think I finally convinced him to do it. He did say he would just cut a little, call me and for me to try it out before cutting deeper. I don't know if I did the right thing by leaving it with him or whether I should have just sent it on to Ruger. I've heard they may not do anything hence my reason for leaving it with the gunsmith. I may end up just using this thing for a paper weight. I'm about over it.

[Char-Gar]

ColColt... Don't feel aggravated about the issue. Quite frequently we stumble around in the dark for a time, before the cause appears. That is just the limitation of communicating on these kinds of boards. Frequently, I read threads where folks have problems, and if I had the gun in my hand, I feel certain I could track it down in short order. That is just the nature of these boards.

[cbrick]

Col, I'm another one that get's little to no leading in my revolvers. The only exception to that was recently in my S&W 624 44 Special and that was my fault. Why was it my fault? Because I didn't fit the bullet properly to seat against the ball seat of the throats and it leaded the cylinder, spread to the forcing cone and into the bore past the barrel threads. At first I thought it was a barrel constriction and was about to fire lap it. Glad I didn't, further shooting and examining revealed the real proplem. My normal cure is to shoot a heavy enough (long enough) bullet that the front driving band chambers inside the throat with a mild snug fit and this cured about 99% of the leading issue. Next I properly sized and used a COL to fit up against the ball seats and this also cured the leading.

Also, I do not shoot diamonds, the vast majority of my shooting, rifle and handgun is done with air cooled WW alloy.

A reasonable alloy properly fitted to the firearm in question is a great cure to leading. There are of course mechanical proplems such as your Ruger but that too is fixable.

Rick

[ColColt]

Advice well taken and appreciated. I've used a sundry of boolits for this revolver to include the 358429-a favorite and accuracy seems best with Lee's 358-158 RNFP. I just called the gunsmith and got another worker there and just told him to tell Joe, the head smith, to go ahead and just cut the 11 degree angle and be done with it. Incrementally doing this is time consuming and to me not necessary. I don't know why he was hesitant about changing the 5 degree angle but after all, it's my gun. If it works, fine, if not-I'll just have to contend with that when time comes.

[MtGun44]

Good luck, hope you sort that one out!

Bill

[Char-Gar]

ColColt, every year there are fewer and fewer gunsmiths that really know what they are doing. They just replace pasts and tinker with things. There are still some high quality folks out there, but they are very busy, charge high prices and don't take guff of customers.

For every good experience I have had with a local gunsmith, I have had two or three bad ones. That is why I took to doing my own work. It isn't rocket science and I will take the time to pre-think every job and go slow enough not to make any mistakes that can't be fixed.

You man is afraid to change a 5 degree angle to an 11 degree angle, because he is afraid he will have to enlarge the cone to far. I don't think that will happen, as I have recut several Ruger forcing cones to 11% without any problems. I have read in print that with the Powers 11 degree cutter on a Ruger, you will produce a two step cone. I never have.

[ColColt]

He did mention a two step cut and I wasn't sure what he meant. This guy has been around awhile (71 years old) and should know what he's doing(hopefully). That might have been part of his reluctance but surely he's done it before and should know. Both he and one of the other guys said my problem was because I was shooting lead boolits, if that tells you anything...didn't make me feel good. I told him if he'd like to pay for about 500 jacketed boolits I'd try his method first. I'm hoping he does what I want and doesn't botch it up.

[geargnasher]

The information was there, in the other thread, but it was overlooked.

Tell your gunsmith that he doesn't have to cut the 11-degree cone clear out to the edge of the existing cone, only enough to reach the area where the boolits have been hitting it. Even if it is a two-step when he's done with it, that doesn't mean it won't shoot just fine. Also, a friend of mine has one gun that is about .060" too deep with the cone due to excessive use with full-power loads and hot-burning powder and a re-cut to sharpen the lands a bit. It shoots just fine with slow powder, but if you use fast powder and boolits that are too soft they will skid enough to leak the entire length of the trailing edges of the lands and lead the whole barrel.

I know I took some pics of it, but I can't seem to find the disc at the moment. It would swallow a 429421 up to the middle of the grease groove before the front band found steel in the forcing cone, but it shot great.

Gear

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I believe there is a thread on the Ruger forum (reloading) that shows a forcing cone as you are describing. It was going to be sent back into Ruger for repair on their dime. That forcing cone may just be the whole problem.

Just went over there to look. I guess it's your thread.

[Char-Gar]

The potential problem with cutting forcing cones in sixguns is not going to deep. The so called "Taylor" throat, cut a one bullet length freebore into the breech end of the barrel. That is deep!

The potential problem is over enlarging the opening at the rear end of the barrel, allowing the bullet base to expand way to much, when the nose engages the rifling and the base is hanging in the air taking the hit from the gases.

The purpose of the little plug gauge that goes with the forcing cone cutter is to make certain the opening at the rear end of the barrel isn't to extreme. However, these gauges are ground on the very conservative side. About half of the revolvers I have recut had to go past the top step on the gauge to clean up the old forcing cone.

I would agree that two step would not be a bug-a-boo, but I have never seen one and I have recut a number of Ruger forcing cones.

A 11 degree cutter will give a longer more gentle taper than found in may sixgun forcing cones and ease the bullet into the barrel. The older Pre-War Smiths and Colts have little more than a steep angle bevel for a forcing cone. Others, (including one Python) look like the cone had been cut with a cast iron burr.

Handguns made in the last 15 or 20 years seem to have better forcing cones. The gunmakers seem to be paying more attention to that detail than they did in prior years. Ruger in general does a good job of cutting forcing cones.

The problem in this case is one of quality control. I hate to see ColColt hung out to dry with this mess. If wish he lived close by, I would recut that cone in about ten minutes and he would go away with a sixgun that would not lead with decent cast bullet ammo.