30-06 311284 4831?

[dualsport]

I'm loading up some trial loads for my 03a3 in once fired HXP brass. Three batches, all with the NOE 311284. Oven heat treated wws, lubed in a Lyman 450/.312 die with home made lube and gc applied. Then a light coat of LLA mix. First batch no filler, second has .7cc COW, third has .7cc PSB, all loaded over 46.5 gr. WWII 4831 and CCI 200s. It's a new 1944 Remington 2 groove barrel. Any predictions? Anyone tried a similar load? What velocity? If I have time I'll chrono them tomorrow, but I was wondering if any of you scientific types can predict the velocity.

[Will]

Have use 40 to 50gr 4831 with the 311284 with good results. Never used a chrony but they would hit a 55gal drum at 500yds. They began to keyhole at about 400yds. I think the velocity was about 1500 to 1700. Makes a good hunting load in brush.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

In my 03's,03-A3's, and 1917's. 42-44 grains of 4831 gave good accuracy at 100-200 yards. Burned clean and no leading. Bullets were sized at .310 and the lube was NRA 50/50 Beeswax-Alox. LLS

[madsenshooter]

Some cartridges seem to get along with filler, some don't. I'm not a scientific type, but I'd guesstimate your velocity to be around 1900-2000fps. The two with filler will be higher since you're increasing the pressure. I've only tried Puf-Lon so far, but my 6x45 is less accurate with it. Could be the .002 tall rifling doesn't much like moly in it. It has been rumored that the 311284 looses accuracy above 1700, but that could be one of those old caster's tales. Could've been with the alloy they were using. Your load will really rock the steel targets, I've shot quite a few at that speed out of my Krags.

[NuJudge]

I believe I can predict difficult extraction. That HXP brass, even on the second firing, gives me more trouble extracting it from my 1903 and 1903A3 rifles than any other brass I've ever had.

[WineMan]

Win place or show that should be a fun load. DS and I have a little shoot off tomorrow at the silhouette range. My load is 42 gr IMR 4350, WLR, HXP and Kapok. Both with 1903A3's. The trick will be if there is enough elevation on the 800 yard sight for that load at 550 yards, my guess is no. A 1903 or M1917 (or a scope) might be a better choice as they have much more elevation and the M1903 has the windage adjustment too.

Wineman

[Char-Gar]

I do not think I would use COW in any bottle neck case. It can take on moisture and harden into a cake and that can boost pressure significantly.

I do not think I would use PSB either with 4831. Those tiny little poly balls can mix with that long stick powder and do some squirrely things.

I use PSB in 30-06 loads, but it is on top of a very slow BALL machine gun powder (WC872). It won't mix with this tightly packed ball powder.

If I wanted to use a filler in a 30-06 case and 4831, it would be a tuff of dacron.

If you look at the charts of the rifles and loads uses in the military rifle matches of the Cast Bullet Association, you will find lots of 03A3s there in the winner circle. You will also find they most often size their bullet .310. That is the size I shoot in my two 03A3s with good results.

As always read my disclaimer below.

[dualsport]

Off to the range, we'll see. EDIT; OK, tried the loads mentioned above. At 100 yds. w/10X Bushnell on 03a3, the COW loads were too hot, stopped shooting them. Primers flattened a touch, poor accuracy, maybe 10". The PSB and no-filler loads shot well, no noticeable difference, sub 2 moa no problem. No time to chrono but recoil was stout, no leading problems. Tomorrow I'll try them no filler on the rams and pigs. I also shot a CBA postal match with my Winchester M94 30-30. That one used a Lee 200 gr. over AA2015. Did ok. Not gonna win any $$ though.

[dualsport]

Shot the milsil match with cbs for the first time. I learned a couple things and have high hopes for future use. It appears filler isn't necessary or beneficial with 4831 in these loads. Without filler I shot a chicken that was on the turkey line, 385m, and got some of everything, including rams at 500m! Got 8 straight pigs at 300m. The 385m chicken was shot number 40, last shot of the match, plus quite a few sighters, so I'd say leading was not an issue, no wiping at all during the match. The match director is now considering giving cbs a try in his SMLE. With the price of jacketed bullets the cb option is attractive and the added challenge and satisfaction is a factor too. My impression is the cast boolits went right where I aimed them all the way out to 500m and knocked over the heavy steel rams no problem.

[Char-Gar]

Good report..there is nothing like going to the range to teach us what works and what doesn't work.

[WineMan]

As expected, the elevation of the stock sights on the M1903A3 were not enough for the 550 meter rams. At 300 meters I had it on 650. A shorter front sight might be the trick. I believe it has an A on it now so something custom is probably in order. Still having problems with the drastic change in eyesight since turning 50. Not there yet, with irons. I used a scope for shots at 500 Meters and got one ram and a turkey at that range (it was the "Fun" match). Lack of practice shows up at match time.

Wineman

[Char-Gar]

I built up a SC 03A3 into a very nice sporter. I removed the military rear sight dovetail on the rear receiver bridge and hand polished all the tool marks off the rifle. It has a long slide Lyman 38 and I can really crank up the sight for long range shooting.

I have a Redfield Sourdough blade in an 03 front sight band. Before I removed the dovetail I could not get the slide low enough for a dead on point of aim zero with either cast or jacketed bullets. Beside, it looks better with the rear receiver bridge flat topped.

[WineMan]

The goal that DS and I had was to use cast in the Military long range Silhouette game here in Sacramento. We had planned to go 03A3's each and while we did mine was stock AI and his was in a sporter stock with a 10x scope. I used his rifle for the rams but I had a brain F@^t and cranked on 11 clicks (4+4+3). That would have been fine for my M1 but not a 1/4 click target scope going from 330 yards to 550 yards (55 clicks was needed)! Several I did not see the shot (really low) minutes went by until we figured out what was going on. My analysis of the experiment:

Cast works at all ranges although we used one load only not different ones for different ranges

Good accuracy and no leading with velocities around 2,000 fps (need some chrono data to back this up)

Rams fall down no problem

At that velocity a 200 grain cast bullet does kick harder than a faster, lighter jacketed load does

The issue is sight elevation: target sights or scopes would seem best but a 1903, M1917 or SMLE ladder sight or tangent sights would work if the wind dope is good

Wineman

[Bob S]

I used to shoot 40-42 grains of WW II surplus 4831 with the Ideal 311284. Alloy was nothing fancy, just the wheelweights of the day (late 1960's-early 1970's). I did put 1/4 sheet of TP over the powder. Seated to crimp groove, and with 42 grains, it woirked the action of the M1 rifle very nicely. With 40 grains, and seated out to just below the first lube groove for the 03A3, it was my go-to load for NRA HP shooting at 200 and 300 yards. It would stay in the ten ring of the SR target (7" diameter) at 300 yards if I was "on" that day. The rear sight was an old Lyman 48, issue front sight. I drilled it for scope mounts after the 1973 season was over. This is the first ten rounds out of the tube, fired prone at 200 yards, after reassembling and putting the scope on.



The issue sights probably would not have had sufficient elevation for 300 yards, and the adjustements are pretty crude, anyway. I used a very short front sight blade for cast loads with my "as-issued" 03A3's, like on the left.



On the right is my first attempt at adapting the issue rear sight for finer adjustments in elevation. The binding screw is a 2x56 truss head. Since you needed a small screw driver to set and lock elevation, it was a little awkward to do while in the sling. I have since gone to a 4x40 allen set screw, which is much easier to manipulate:



The fixturing hole in the yoke needs to be filled in for this to work; I use a No. 10x32 screw and file it flush.

Put a few extra notches in the windage knobs (left) and get 1/2 minute windage clicks.



Resp'y,
Bob S.

[WineMan]

I had to choose between H 414, IMR 4350 and IMR 7383 (50 Cal spotter powder) I had a load worked up with the 7383 but it was a 170 grain ACWW, GC at 0.309" for M1 practice at 1,800 fps with 42 grains. I thought that a heavier heat treated booltit going faster might stress this peaky powder as I did not have much time to work up a load. The 4350 got the nod and I had Kapok given to me by a member here as a filler.

It was fun but I am afraid that the eyes are not up to the iron sight task anymore. The fun day was alternating black and white silhouettes (amazing how the white ones look bigger) and then the #9 was the target from another line (turkey at the rams, chicken at turkeys) and the #10 was six inch disk at all ranges.

Wineman

[WineMan]

DS and I were able to chrono the two loads that we used for the silhouette with cast match:

46.5 gr Surplus IMR 4831 with Dacron and CCI 200 under a 311299 @ 0.312" HTWW, ~2,000 fps HXP brass, lube???

42 grains (Lee 3.1cc) IMR 4350 with Kapok and WLR under a 311284 @0.312" HTWW, ~2,100 fps, HXP brass, Speed Green lube

I thought the 4350 load would be slower and DS thought the 4831 would be faster.

Both kick like heck though so I am not sure the cost savings is worth the extra wham factor and greater sight correction. Another local range has a silhouette match but it uses the pistol ranges and the rams are only at 200 meters. Easy meat for a nice 16 grain of Alliant 2400 type load and a 170 cast GC Boolit.

Wineman

[1Shirt]

Many years ago when surplus 4831 was less than a buck a pound, and the only mold I had was a 311284 for 06, I shot a whoop of it with a lot of sucess in a springfield. Also shot a bunch of it under 150 gr. Jacketed surplus fMs that sold back then for 2 cents each. Them were truely the good old days of reloading.
1Shirt!