Cramer Lube/sizer

[Pressman]

Does anyone have one? I need pictures of the dies, top punch and the rod that pushes the bullet up and out of the die. Even the front of the tool itself. I think there are two clips that fit into grooves in the guide rods, both clips are missing.

I just aquired a Cramer that appears to have never been used. No were marks on the linkage and the insides are spotless, no sign of grease.

It did not get any dies or top punches.
Question, are the dies and top punches interchangeable with Saeco? I am thinking not.

Ken

[Bent Ramrod]

(*Gasp!! Puff!*) Hope I'm not too late!! Came across this thread looking for info on Cramer lubrisizers.

I came across a specimen last weekend. Only the wrench to tighten the pressure piston is missing. (Anybody have a picture?) Evidently somebody had spilled solvent on the thing because the bluish gray paint had come off in sheets. Finally got enough of the lube away from the sizing die to see how it is fixed in there, and got the die out. I compared it to a SAECO die I had lying around. Then I found three other SAECO dies and the fun really started.

Top Flange Diameter: Cramer 0.858" SAECO 0.874" (I have three other SAECO dies where the flange is 0.858")

Top Flange Thickness: Cramer 0.086" SAECO 0.149" (The other three are around 0.130" thick.)

Length of Body: Cramer 1.630" SAECO 1.610" (The other three are around 1.630" long.)
(Not Including Flange)

Body Diameter: Cramer 0.689" SAECO 0.689" (The other three are the same diameter.)

The flange seat in the Cramer is not quite wide enough to let the first SAECO die seat all the way down, but the set screw arrangement would hold it in place and a properly sized O ring around the body underneath the flange might actually allow one to use it in Cramer lubrisizers. The flange could certainly be turned down for a definitive fit, but it might not be useful in a SAECO lubrisizer afterwards. The others should drop right in. Three of the four SAECO dies have threads on the bottom for a collar to hold them into their seats in the machine. But one of them has no threads, and except for the "SAECO" on top, it is virtually a duplicate of the Cramer. By the way, only the SAECO die with the wide flange had a single row of 6 holes for lube around its circumference. The others all had the same 6 rows of three holes the Cramer die had.

The top punch on the Cramer is very similar to a Lyman/Ideal, except the former has an attachment pin diameter of 0.250" and the latter is around 0.264" or so. The Cramer pin is also longer, but this does not matter so much. One could turn down Lyman/Ideal top punches to work in Cramer lubrisizers as the set screw holds about halfway along the Cramer pin and would tighten on the Lyman/Ideal just fine. I found what might be a SAECO top punch. It has a hexagonal flange on it and a screw thread. If it is a SAECO, the method of attachment of this is completely different than the Cramer or the Ideal; more like the Star.

The set screw arrangement for holding in the die on the Cramer does not shove the die out of alignment, but is about as inconveniently placed as possible. You get about 1/6 of a turn of the Allen wrench before hitting part of the lubrisizer body and then you have to take it out and reposition it.

Here is the lubrisizer as found. Even got three sticks of lube with it. Not bad for $20, I think:
Attachment 99789

The first SAECO die is on the left, the Cramer on the right and the Cramer top punch to the right of the die.
Attachment 99790

Right now it's set up for 0.358." I think I'll try to use the SAECO dies in this machine in the future. Three of them should drop right in with no trouble. All I can think is that SAECO continued a version of the Cramer dies (under their name) to support the old machines while changing things a bit for their brand.

[Pressman]

The handle is made from steel stock. 4 in long 5/8 wide and 1/4 thick.
Great information on the dies. I needed that.
Ken

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I have an old Cramer lube-sizer but it is too late in the day to get it out and take pictures. Ramrod, I think you will find that no top punch other than a Cramer or SACO will work on your luber. They have to be threaded. I only use mine to lube .458 bullets because the dies are so expensive. When I had my lathe I made some dies but it was too much trouble. The dies are not the same diameter their entire length due to the shoulder and this required more lathe time than dies for Lyman or RCBS. I do like the sizer though because it has a bar that swings around to permit better attaching gas checks. Lord willing I will get you guys some pictures tomorrow.

[Bent Ramrod]

Here's the return plunger and depth stop. The thread is 1/2" x 20 TPI.

Attachment 99818

I guess the only thing to do is try the dies and see what happens. It looks like a pretty nice machine; has a square section coil spring in the pressure piston like a Star. How that will work in the absence of the secondary lube pump the Star has should be interesting to watch.

[Bent Ramrod]

Here's the Cramer. Still needs some wiping down. You can see a piece of the loosened paint on the lube cylinder. Was that the original color? The top punch just slides in and is held by the set screw, You can see a shorter version of the same size set screw at the bottom of the lube cylinder on the left holding the die in. Looks like drilling and filing a square hole in a piece of metal and attaching a handle should get the machine working again.

Attachment 99837

I'd be interested to see that gas check seater attachment, Gopher Slayer.

The die with only six holes in it is for .22 caliber while all the others are .243 and .30. Probably that was enough holes for the one or two lube grooves on the little .22s.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I am attaching pictures of my Cramer luber-sizer. It was several years old when I bought it and that was well over thirty years ago. The gas check seating bar is swung to the left in the first picture and engaged in the second. I am also attaching pictures of a SAECO die and nose punch. You can see that the nose punch is threaded. They will both work in my Cramer sizer.

[Bent Ramrod]

That is somewhat different than mine, all right. No set screw for the top punch, which would not be needed if it threaded in, but yours does have the set screw in the back to hold the sizing die in, if my eyes are not mistaken. So yours would not need the threads at the bottom for the locking ring, but on the other hand they would not interfere with the function of the die. My machine has the target logo with "Cramer Bullet Mould Co. North Hollywood Calif USA" on the front; maybe it's earlier than yours, although yours seems to have the same logo, although differently situated. The one box top I have for a SAECO die has Carpenteria California as the address.

It must have complicated the ordering of spares for some of these lubrisizers anyway.

That gas check seater is pretty interesting. No trace of one on mine.

[Pressman]

Finally got time to take a quick pic of mine. It may be older yet? Just a guess as it does not have the disk ID plate. No holes where one was ever attached either. It is perfectly clean inside as though it has never had lube in it.
The top punch is the threaded type. I tried a SAECO die in it and the screw will hold it in though the die is to short for the bottom nut.

Thanks everyone for the other pictures posted here, it helps understand the thing.

The paint color is black wrinkle.

Ken

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Ramrod, you are right about not needing threads on the bottom of the sizing dies for my Cramer. When I made dies for it I didn't bother threading them. I see that the sizer Pressman has came with the gas check seating attachment.

[armprairie]

Is mine left handed or is yours? My handle sticks out the opposite side so is made mirror image to yours. As you operate it, you push up with your left hand to size the bullet. He must have made them both ways. I'll see if that forum mentions that in the historical catalogs. I have mine clamped to a 2x10 that has a piece of aluminum deck plate on top of it. I have a small iron sitting on the plate for heat and the whole rig works flawlessly with White Label Carnauba Red. I've had the Star and used my old Lyman 45 for years. But I like this Cramer the best of all, absolutely no leakage. Crank it down some more and size six to a dozen bullets before cranking again. The Saeco Bushing gives perfect alignment by having a straight section the as cast diameter. The gas check seater is the slickest thing since sliced bread. Everything made like a machinist would design it, about the highest compliment this old chip maker can give.

[Pressman]

armprairie can you post a picture of yours? You really have stirred my curiosity with the wrong facing handle.
Ken

[tward]

Just used my Cramer tonight to size some 44 Boolits to .430. It takes the Saeco dies but secures them with a screw that pushes the die down, mine uses Saeco screw in top punchesTim

[Pressman]

A pre Redding Saeco, now that is cool. Thanks for posting.
Ken

[armprairie]

Sorry for taking so long. This is my first attempt at posting a picture, so if your computer starts to smoke, you'll know why.
Glen

[armprairie]

As you can see this allows you to use your left hand to push the handle up and down, and that seems OK since it's just brunt force. This leaves your right hand to do the things that require dexterity. I worked with a lot of foundries as a manufacturing engineer, and we often had them put various features on a casting pattern that made it adaptable for more than one function, primarily for small runs as this would have been. I'm guessing that that base casting had ears on both sides for drilling a hole. And you would just grind off the one you didn't want when you were building it. At least it's a possibility. Also the top piece casting has two name plate holes, but don't appear to have ever been used. They face away from you, though it could simply be reversed.
I wonder if anyone else has a Cramer like this. Is it special order, or a prototype perhaps?
Glen

[Bent Ramrod]

Armprairie,

That looks like a genuine left handed Cramer/SAECO lubrisizer all right, not just a modified or "differently-assembled" righty. Wow. This brand just gets weirder and weirder.

I looked through my early Handloaders' Digests and found no mention of the SAECO lubrisizer being offered in a left handed configuration. Photos of the earlier machines (which were already being described as "New and Improved") showed a separate yoke to clamp the machine on the bench, like an early Ideal lubrisizer. Later, (about 1978), a picture of the one-piece machine with integral clamp showed up, but a few years later, pictures of the one with the separate clamp again appeared. I don't know if the Advertising Dept. lost the later photo and were too cheap to make another one or what.

Sharpe's handloading book was not too informative either. The Supplement said that SAECO had bought Cramer in 1951, and had moved production of Cramer's moulds and lubrisizer to Pasadena. However, the description of the machine already seemed to match the early pictures of the "New and Improved" SAECO model, and most of the copy went on to describe how the gas check seater worked. Sharpe was pretty impressed with the thing; according to him, it crimps or otherwise securely attaches the gas check (Lyman/Ideal the only type back then; no "crimp-on" until Hornady invented them) so they don't come off no matter what. However, I couldn't find any mention of the Cramer lubrisizer in the earlier part of the Complete Guide and no pictures either. There was no mention of an optional left handed Cramer or SAECO, which I would think Sharpe would have noted; he was good at pointing out needed features in reloading equipment. Maybe only the Cramer was offered in left or right handed configuration. I've only seen "CRAMER" stamped on the sprue plates of moulds; have no idea of how they labeled their sizer machine.

So this is a genuine mystery. Early Cramer vs later SAECO (and presumably even later SAECO-Redding), with or without "New Improvements", separate clamp vs integral clamp, label on the top punch holder vs label on the sizing die holder (or label not there at all), right-handed vs left handed operation, screw-in vs set screw held top punches, set-screw vs collar held die bodies, gas check seater vs none...and all the same product with the 30-lb spring in the grease tube, hardened and ground sizing dies (of different configurations), high-quality manufacture and a steadily escalating price that would have bought two Lyman/Ideal lubrisizers or three Herter's lubrisizers in the same period.

Who's going to be first on their block to "collect them all?"

[Pressman]

Bent Ramrod, take a closer look at the picture and of some pictured above. It is a simple matter of reversing the handle. The link is in the pivot hole when used for right hand operation. Really simple. And really interesting.

As for name plates, I do not know for certain but some, like mine, never had a name plate. Unless the top is on backwards and the holes are facing the rear. Will check that later today.
Ken

[Bent Ramrod]

Pressman,

Is my face red! Also, of course, the Cramer bullseye label on the sizer is equally obviously the way the machines were labeled. I got my SAECOs and Cramers mixed up with something else in my hasty researches, I guess.

I was thinking there would have to have been another pin location on other side of the base to reverse the lever direction that way. Well, I was never any good at guessing which crumpled up glove was right or left handed when they tested us in school, either.

[armprairie]

You mean that all I have to do is reverse the handle and I'll be pushing up with the wrong hand too! Then I'd have to handle bullets and gas checks with my left hand. I can't comb my hair with my left hand. These days I can't comb it with my right though.